Let's pretend we had 2 private only classes

[JCHillmen]

In something I typed in a different thread not that long ago I mentioned you didn’t necessarily have to have equal size brackets. If you aren’t taking everyone into the playoffs (as in you just qualify) maybe you only have a 16 team top bracket and 32 team middle bracket and a 24 team small bracket. Idk. As I said at the time I’d have to seen the exact enrollments of all private’s lines up from biggest to smallest to see how many teams fell into the 3 divisions at what would be reasonable cut off lines.

If you’re considering 16 in the biggest class, I would be curious to Know what the 16th largest private school in Illinois is. If it is a school if 800, we are fine. If it’s a school if 700, that can probably work but may be a stretch. Once you get into the 600s, it is quite a bit harder to justify putting them in a class with schools so much larger than them, especially if it is a school with no football culture.

would love to see a list of IL private schools in order of enrollment. That could really help us visualize where a reasonable cutoff might be.

 

[gw86]

Hypothetical for NIPL supporters-
If total separation from the IHSA occurs for football, odds are it won’t be on great terms with the IHSA. If it goes so far as the NIPL changing rules for recruiting/scholarship/30 mile radius/etc., at that point is the NIPL in effect for all sports?

I guess what I’m getting at is let’s say there’s a stud wide out that happens to travel 50 miles to a school to play football. He just so happens to be a high level basketball or baseball recruit. I’m guessing he wouldn’t be eligible to play any other IHSA sport at that point. The obvious answer is if he really wants to play those sports he’d go closer to home so he is eligible. But isn’t one of the perks of the NIPL that school’s from all over would be able to target those kids?

The other potential issue would be if the IHSA holds a grudge and says if you’re not a member for football you’re not a member for any sport. I have no doubt the money would be there for the NIPL in a football only setting. But would it be there to cover a state tennis tournament or a state track meet?

Just playing devil’s advocate a little, it might be something administrators much more intelligent than me could figure out with no problem. But logistically and financially, it seems like it could be a massive undertaking as I don’t see total separation taking place unless it is for all sports.

 

[mc140]

ICCP would be in lowest class if you went 3 classes. Here is 1-43

Wilmette (Loyola Academy) 2028
Chicago (Marist) 1637.5
Niles (Notre Dame) 1561
Chicago (St. Ignatius College Prep) 1428.5
Chicago (Brother Rice) 1426
Lisle (Benet Academy) 1329.5
Chicago (St. Patrick) 1289
Mundelein (Carmel) 1241.5
Chicago (Mt. Carmel) 1237
Oak Park (Fenwick) 1189.5
Chicago (St. Rita) 1161
Aurora (Marmion Academy) 1060
Chicago Heights (Marian) 1002.5
New Lenox (Providence Catholic) 983
Chicago (De La Salle) 908
Rockford (Boylan Catholic) 875.5
Burbank (St. Laurence) 853.5
Arlington Heights (St. Viator) 836.5
Peoria (Notre Dame) 782.5
LaGrange Park (Nazareth Academy) 772
Wheaton (St. Francis) 739
Woodstock (Marian) 677
Lombard (Montini) 650.5
Springfield (Sacred Heart-Griffin) 645.5
West Chicago (Wheaton Academy) 644.5
Joliet (Catholic Academy) 644
Aurora (Central Catholic) 573.5
Chicago (DePaul College Prep) 444.5
Rock Island (Alleman) 435
Alton (Marquette) 414
Breese (Mater Dei) 408
Quincy (Notre Dame) 407
Belleville (Althoff Catholic) 382
Rockford (R. Christian) 378.5
Elgin (St. Edward) 370
Rockford (Lutheran) 362
Westchester (St. Joseph) 355.5
Kankakee (McNamara) 342
Palos Heights (Chicago Christian) 339.5
Chicago (Christ the King) 338.5
River Grove (Guerin) 324.5
Bloomington (Central Catholic) 324
Elmhurst (IC Catholic) 319

 

[Snetsrak61]

Hypothetical for NIPL supporters-
If total separation from the IHSA occurs for football, odds are it won’t be on great terms with the IHSA. If it goes so far as the NIPL changing rules for recruiting/scholarship/30 mile radius/etc., at that point is the NIPL in effect for all sports?

I guess what I’m getting at is let’s say there’s a stud wide out that happens to travel 50 miles to a school to play football. He just so happens to be a high level basketball or baseball recruit. I’m guessing he wouldn’t be eligible to play any other IHSA sport at that point. The obvious answer is if he really wants to play those sports he’d go closer to home so he is eligible. But isn’t one of the perks of the NIPL that school’s from all over would be able to target those kids?

The other potential issue would be if the IHSA holds a grudge and says if you’re not a member for football you’re not a member for any sport. I have no doubt the money would be there for the NIPL in a football only setting. But would it be there to cover a state tennis tournament or a state track meet?

Just playing devil’s advocate a little, it might be something administrators much more intelligent than me could figure out with no problem. But logistically and financially, it seems like it could be a massive undertaking as I don’t see total separation taking place unless it is for all sports.

Yea, I think a break would have to be for all sports. If the school broke the 30 mile radius they'd be intelligible for all sports, even if kids in that sport all fell within that radius. Or if that's not how its enforced today, it would be an easy fix for the IHSA to do as a negotiating tool.

 

[TonPlugZeroLock]

So your defense is...."if you think were bad now just wait, we cant be trusted so keep an eye on us" You guys make me laugh with all of this crap! And you wonder why many of us cant wait for the split. Bring it on !!!

Haha again, be careful what you wish for. The complaining will be way worse if there is a split. Think of greater financial aide, so many students want to go to a catholic school but do not have the means. If the catholics govern each other whos to say "scholarships" wont go through the roof? Think bout no boundaries too. Now for example a kid from the north side can shoot down the redline to a south side school?!... chaos looms!!

 

[JCHillmen]

ICCP would be in lowest class if you went 3 classes. Here is 1-43

Wilmette (Loyola Academy) 2028
Chicago (Marist) 1637.5
Niles (Notre Dame) 1561
Chicago (St. Ignatius College Prep) 1428.5
Chicago (Brother Rice) 1426
Lisle (Benet Academy) 1329.5
Chicago (St. Patrick) 1289
Mundelein (Carmel) 1241.5
Chicago (Mt. Carmel) 1237
Oak Park (Fenwick) 1189.5
Chicago (St. Rita) 1161
Aurora (Marmion Academy) 1060
Chicago Heights (Marian) 1002.5
New Lenox (Providence Catholic) 983
Chicago (De La Salle) 908
Rockford (Boylan Catholic) 875.5
Burbank (St. Laurence) 853.5
Arlington Heights (St. Viator) 836.5
Peoria (Notre Dame) 782.5
LaGrange Park (Nazareth Academy) 772
Wheaton (St. Francis) 739
Woodstock (Marian) 677
Lombard (Montini) 650.5
Springfield (Sacred Heart-Griffin) 645.5
West Chicago (Wheaton Academy) 644.5
Joliet (Catholic Academy) 644
Aurora (Central Catholic) 573.5
Chicago (DePaul College Prep) 444.5
Rock Island (Alleman) 435
Alton (Marquette) 414
Breese (Mater Dei) 408
Quincy (Notre Dame) 407
Belleville (Althoff Catholic) 382
Rockford (R. Christian) 378.5
Elgin (St. Edward) 370
Rockford (Lutheran) 362
Westchester (St. Joseph) 355.5
Kankakee (McNamara) 342
Palos Heights (Chicago Christian) 339.5
Chicago (Christ the King) 338.5
River Grove (Guerin) 324.5
Bloomington (Central Catholic) 324
Elmhurst (IC Catholic) 319

That’s actually not terrible if you did 16 in biggest class. I would just feel bad for a quarter of the field in Marian, Marmion, Ignatius, and Boylan. Carmel and pats too, but they could be competitive in the future. You could go with 24 or 32 teams and try to include naz, JC, Montini, and SHG. But that would draw in some other schools that would be way out of their element too.

thanks for sharing that list. I have no great answers yet. Knee jerk reaction says maybe do a biggest class of 16 biggest schools. Middle class of schools ranked 17 to 32 in enrollment. Then everyone else in smallest class, that would leave 400 as the rough enrollment cutoff for the smallest class, which is not terrible.

still would like to find a way to get IC bumped up. And naz to biggest class. But a middle class of naz, JC, Montini, SHG, and IC could be fun.

 

[Snetsrak61]

That’s actually not terrible if you did 16 in biggest class. I would just feel bad for a quarter of the field in Marian, Marmion, Ignatius, and Boylan. Carmel and pats too, but they could be competitive in the future. You could go with 24 or 32 teams and try to include naz, JC, Montini, and SHG. But that would draw in some other schools that would be way out of their element too.

thanks for sharing that list. I have no great answers yet. Knee jerk reaction says maybe do a biggest class of 16 biggest schools. Middle class of schools ranked 17 to 32 in enrollment. Then everyone else in smallest class, that would leave 400 as the rough enrollment cutoff for the smallest class, which is not terrible.

still would like to find a way to get IC bumped up. And naz to biggest class. But a middle class of naz, JC, Montini, SHG, and IC could be fun.

In this hypothetical, why not just do a top 8 heavy weight class that is a subjective top 8 ranking, regardless of size. Then split two classes at 16 each, based on size.

 

[Irish LB]

So your defense is...."if you think were bad now just wait, we cant be trusted so keep an eye on us" You guys make me laugh with all of this crap! And you wonder why many of us cant wait for the split. Bring it on !!!

That’s what you took from my post? You must be public school educated.

 

[JCHillmen]

In this hypothetical, why not just do a top 8 heavy weight class that is a subjective top 8 ranking, regardless of size. Then split two classes at 16 each, based on size.

I like this suggestion! That would be awesome.

 

[14decoys]

Haha again, be careful what you wish for. The complaining will be way worse if there is a split. Think of greater financial aide, so many students want to go to a catholic school but do not have the means. If the catholics govern each other whos to say "scholarships" wont go through the roof? Think bout no boundaries too. Now for example a kid from the north side can shoot down the redline to a south side school?!... chaos looms!!

I could care less-- I live in the cornfields---there is no one to recruit!!! Whats a redline----??? just kidding, I know what it is but none of those around here. We have John Deere tractors though. Would those be Green lines?

 

[Rum Ham]

I’ve been saying this for years but people refuse to listen. They think Catholic schools “cheat” now, just imagine...

Only it wouldn't be cheating now would it? The supposed rules we have now aren't enforced just pointed at whenever asks how that happened.

 

[Rum Ham]

It so, so warms the heart to even see this being fantasized about...

 

[USD24]

Haha again, be careful what you wish for. The complaining will be way worse if there is a split. Think of greater financial aide, so many students want to go to a catholic school but do not have the means. If the catholics govern each other whos to say "scholarships" wont go through the roof? Think bout no boundaries too. Now for example a kid from the north side can shoot down the redline to a south side school?!... chaos looms!!

Where is all of this additional financial aid going to come from? I know the school my kids attend is already doing everything they can to get as much financial aid out there to students as possible. How are athletic rules changing going to somehow increase the amount of financial aid available?

 

[TonPlugZeroLock]

I could care less-- I live in the cornfields---there is no one to recruit!!! Whats a redline----??? just kidding, I know what it is but none of those around here. We have John Deere tractors though. Would those be Green lines?

Theres already a green line. It runs east and west. We'll think of someting lol

 

[TonPlugZeroLock]

Where is all of this additional financial aid going to come from? I know the school my kids attend is already doing everything they can to get as much financial aid out there to students as possible. How are athletic rules changing going to somehow increase the amount of financial aid available?

I'm just speculating, but I mean if these schools begin governing themselves why wouldn't there be athletic scholarships? Sponsorships from rich alumni who supports a catholic education? Just spit balling.

 

[Rum Ham]

Where is all of this additional financial aid going to come from? I know the school my kids attend is already doing everything they can to get as much financial aid out there to students as possible. How are athletic rules changing going to somehow increase the amount of financial aid available?

Uh... Alumni want to see their Alma maters win? They will fund it. Some schools have more successful alumni. That success presumably derived from the education they received. Let the best educated prevail!

School is about education after all.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

If you’re considering 16 in the biggest class, I would be curious to Know what the 16th largest private school in Illinois is. If it is a school if 800, we are fine. If it’s a school if 700, that can probably work but may be a stretch. Once you get into the 600s, it is quite a bit harder to justify putting them in a class with schools so much larger than them, especially if it is a school with no football culture.

would love to see a list of IL private schools in order of enrollment. That could really help us visualize where a reasonable cutoff might be.

I wasn’t proposing any specific number just threw that out there but there are 16 schools quite close to or over 1,000 once you double the enrollment of the single sex schools: Loyola, Marist, Benet, Mt Carmel, Carmel, st Rita, brother rice, st pats, Fenwick, st ignatius, Providence, Notre Dame, and that’s off top of my head. I’m sure there are a several more once you take those in the 8-900 range.. but like we both said need to see a list of all private’s by enrollment to draw exact lines.... no multipliers except the doubling of the boys only schools.

 

[TonPlugZeroLock]

I'm just speculating, but I mean if these schools begin governing themselves why wouldn't there be athletic scholarships? Sponsorships from rich alumni who supports a catholic education? Just spit balling.

This could definetly be much to do about nothing. If the IHSA continues to govern both boundary and non boundary schools but just puts them in different playoffs, non of this will come to fruition.

 

[krock the house]

a ton of states do this already.
You dont want us and we dont want you
peace out.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

I wasn’t proposing any specific number just threw that out there but there are 16 schools quite close to or over 1,000 once you double the enrollment of the single sex schools: Loyola, Marist, Benet, Mt Carmel, Carmel, st Rita, brother rice, st pats, Fenwick, st ignatius, Providence, Notre Dame, and that’s off top of my head. I’m sure there are a several more once you take those in the 8-900 range.. but like we both said need to see a list of all private’s by enrollment to draw exact lines.... no multipliers except the doubling of the boys only schools.

Well while I was typing this someone did the top 43.... where’s the others? Someone said 60 play football?

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

That’s actually not terrible if you did 16 in biggest class. I would just feel bad for a quarter of the field in Marian, Marmion, Ignatius, and Boylan. Carmel and pats too, but they could be competitive in the future. You could go with 24 or 32 teams and try to include naz, JC, Montini, and SHG. But that would draw in some other schools that would be way out of their element too.

thanks for sharing that list. I have no great answers yet. Knee jerk reaction says maybe do a biggest class of 16 biggest schools. Middle class of schools ranked 17 to 32 in enrollment. Then everyone else in smallest class, that would leave 400 as the rough enrollment cutoff for the smallest class, which is not terrible.

still would like to find a way to get IC bumped up. And naz to biggest class. But a middle class of naz, JC, Montini, SHG, and IC could be fun.

You can’t go around worrying about or feeling bad for the big schools that just aren’t good. They don’t make special accommodations for big public schools that are bad and drop them down. They aren’t saying oh poor lake park let’s put them in 5a. If ignatius is big and good so be it if they are bad so be it. They have been plenty competitive lately and Carmel mundelein isn’t THAT FAR removed from competing for state championships. The enrollments are what they are except the doubling of the all boys schools.

 

[ramblinman]

I think if there was a true break from the IHSA, then some interesting out of the box thinking could take place with respect to the regular season and playoffs.

For example, what about a 10 game regular season and playoff class fields of only 16 and four rounds of playoff games?

If you had only 16 qualifiers per class, then you could have two classes. (I counted 56 private schools playing 11 man football this year)

Or, how about a field of 24, with the top 8 seeded teams being given a first round bye (and a second round home game) and the bottom 16 teams playing first round games.

As for determining class cutoffs and qualifying, my preference would be for classes based on competitive level and not necessarily based on enrollment. Competitive level determined by a formula that takes several success metrics into account. Possibly influenced by enrollment, but definitely not exclusively based on enrollment. Qualifying should probably be on won loss record. If there are 32 playoff teams and 56 private teams altogether, and if there is a 10 game regular season, then there are going to be a handful of 4-6 teams that would make the playoffs. Would probably have to use some sort of playoff points system to determine which 4-6 teams are invited.

 

[JCHillmen]

You can’t go around worrying about or feeling bad for the big schools that just aren’t good. They don’t make special accommodations for big public schools that are bad and drop them down. They aren’t saying oh poor lake park let’s put them in 5a. If ignatius is big and good so be it if they are bad so be it. They have been plenty competitive lately and Carmel mundelein isn’t THAT FAR removed from competing for state championships. The enrollments are what they are except the doubling of the all boys schools.

It’s not a deal killer. Just something to consider. I agree with you. Someone has to be the little Fish. If it is st pats that is fine. But if enough schools That are being sent to the bottom of a classification don’t like it, that is enough to kill ramblinmans NIPL before it starts. You have to appease the majority to get it to be accepted, not just the blue bloods.

I like snetsraks suggestion of an 8 team open class and two 16 team enrollment based classes. That would be truly awesome and get all kinds of publicity.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

I think if there was a true break from the IHSA, then some interesting out of the box thinking could take place with respect to the regular season and playoffs.

For example, what about a 10 game regular season and playoff class fields of only 16 and four rounds of playoff games?

If you had only 16 qualifiers per class, then you could have two classes. (I counted 56 private schools playing 11 man football this year)

Or, how about a field of 24, with the top 8 seeded teams being given a first round bye (and a second round home game) and the bottom 16 teams playing first round games.

As for determining class cutoffs and qualifying, my preference would be for classes based on competitive level and not necessarily based on enrollment. Competitive level determined by a formula that takes several success metrics into account. Possibly influenced by enrollment, but definitely not exclusively based on enrollment. Qualifying should probably be on won loss record. If there are 32 playoff teams and 56 private teams altogether, and if there is a 10 game regular season, then there are going to be a handful of 4-6 teams that would make the playoffs. Would probably have to use some sort of playoff points system to determine which 4-6 teams are invited.

The reason I don’t like playoff divisions being determined by quality of team or competitive level is the best teams are grouped for a championship and the poor teams grouped for a championship and you are then giving a championship to the best of the bad teams. You might as well call that the consolation bracket champion.

 

[ClownBaby]

Where is all of this additional financial aid going to come from? I know the school my kids attend is already doing everything they can to get as much financial aid out there to students as possible. How are athletic rules changing going to somehow increase the amount of financial aid available?

I'm sure there will be no problems at the school when the best football players are all going to school for free and the rest of the student body pays full price. Private schools rely on donations its awful tough to ask a parent whose kid is paying full price to help fund raise for an upgrade in the science labs while at the same time asking the alumni for money so the football team can go for free.

These threads about forming a private division make me laugh half the board lives and fantasy land and thinks that money will just magically appear for scholarships to any kid with talent.

 

[LHSTigers94]

See the first sentence in my post. Public funding of public’s maintains a certain level of parity among public’s even of varying size that is different than the private’s. ICCP versus Walther is 2 different worlds even though the enrollment number is not that monumental. The smaller names you know like Bishop Mac and ICCP and others would be in the middle division. The st theresa Decatur, Rockford Christian, walther types among others would be your small division, you know the big division.

So how do you (private supporters) understand this logic for private to private but can't understand the same logic for public to private?

I don't want to troll the thread but I had to ask.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

So how do you (private supporters) understand this logic for private to private but can't understand the same logic for public to private?

I don't want to troll the thread but I had to ask.

Between public funding of facilities, free education, multipliers on private enrollment etc the field is more than leveled. There is nothing to level 2 disparate private’s.

 

[USD24]

Uh... Alumni want to see their Alma maters win? They will fund it. Some schools have more successful alumni. That success presumably derived from the education they received. Let the best educated prevail!

School is about education after all.

Why arent these alumni already donating this money to scholarships at these schools? There is no rule about giving out financial aid to students with need or students with high academics . I just dont see all this additional money coming in. If there is a wealthy alum who wants to see his school win, he is already donating the money in order for kids to receive scholarships.

 

[USD24]

I'm just speculating, but I mean if these schools begin governing themselves why wouldn't there be athletic scholarships? Sponsorships from rich alumni who supports a catholic education? Just spit balling.

Why aren't those rich alumni already giving money for scholarships?

 

[crusader_of_90]

I'm going to the shoe companies - "Hey, you want to outfit a team that is going to draw the top regional talent in the STL market? What's that, Mr. Adidas, yes - we are allowed to give scholarships. That's right up our alley! Hold on a moment, Under Armour is calling my cell."

"I'm sorry, Mrs. Southwest Airlines, American is our official transportation partner, but the bid goes out again in 2024."

 

[ramblinman]

The reason I don’t like playoff divisions being determined by quality of team or competitive level is the best teams are grouped for a championship and the poor teams grouped for a championship and you are then giving a championship to the best of the bad teams. You might as well call that the consolation bracket champion.

And the reason I don't like playoff classes based on enrollment only is because, in the scenario of a two class playoffs based on enrollment, it would set up first round mismatches like IC Catholic vs. Ottawa Marquette or Montini vs. Rockford Christian.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

And the reason I don't like playoff classes based on enrollment only is because, in the scenario of a two class playoffs based on enrollment, it would set up first round mismatches like IC Catholic vs. Ottawa Marquette or Montini vs. Rockford Christian.

That’s why they are first round games. That’s how playoff brackets work. The best teams end up with easy early round games and the weaker teams get eliminated by the good teams and things get progressively more difficult as each round goes by. That’s exaclty how a bracket should and does work.

 

[Fuhtbahl]

There's easy first round games , then there are games that just shouldn't be played. Middling ccl teams hammer the depaul preps, etc. DePaul Prep would destroy teams like those 1A small private schools.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

There's easy first round games , then there are games that just shouldn't be played. Middling ccl teams hammer the depaul preps, etc. DePaul Prep would destroy teams like those 1A small private schools.

If a private division was broken into 3 classes as discussed the wild mismatches wouldn’t occur and some of these teams wouldn’t necessarily qualify for a playoff

 

[ramblinman]

That’s why they are first round games. That’s how playoff brackets work. The best teams end up with easy early round games and the weaker teams get eliminated by the good teams and things get progressively more difficult as each round goes by. That’s exaclty how a bracket should and does work.

I get it, but do it by level of competition. Everything is relative to the teams in the brackets, but the brackets are composed based on competitive level.

So, you would have MC playing LA in the first round of the playoffs this year if you had classifications based on level of competition. And maybe Aquin vs. Rockford Christian in the other class.

 

[stl705]

As a fan of IL high school football, I truly hope privates don’t split. I can certainly see the allure, but give me GW against Loyola or BR vs Sterling, LWE vs NND any day.

May the best teams prevail.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

I get it, but do it by level of competition. Everything is relative to the teams in the brackets, but the brackets are composed based on competitive level.

So, you would have MC playing LA in the first round of the playoffs this year if you had classifications based on level of competition. And maybe Aquin vs. Rockford Christian in the other class.

First, I like others believe there should be 3 brackets so the separation would be even greater and whether 2 or 3 brackets the examples you just gave would be separated the same by enrollment.

 

[14decoys]

That’s what you took from my post? You must be public school educated.

There’s that “we’re better than you are” attitude that usually hides just beneath the surface!! Nice of you to be honest about it at least.

 

[mc140]

Well while I was typing this someone did the top 43.... where’s the others? Someone said 60 play football?

I didn't feel like looking any further down the line. Feel free to continue.

 

[Kevin JCHS 81]

I didn't feel like looking any further down the line. Feel free to continue.

That was good info, good enough to probably cover the top 2 classes.