Football Enrollment

[doctor_d]

My one and only problem with the “open class” idea that is brought up every year is the fact that the IHSA basically already has this. Every school currently has the ability to petition up to whatever class they want, and very few actually do it.

 

[IHSAfan207]

Always enjoy hearing someone's thoughts on how to make the playoffs better.
Just for clarification, I will use 5A the class for the example. The top 16 teams compete for a 5A title and the next 16 teams compete for a 5A title? Did I miss something? So, you have 5A Gold champs and 5A Silver champs? Obviously, Gold=Upper and Silver=Relegation.

Yes correct, in theory top 16 for the 5A "top" title and bottom 16 for a secondary title so however its called Gold / Silver or A / AA.

 

[IHSAfan207]

My one and only problem with the “open class” idea that is brought up every year is the fact that the IHSA basically already has this. Every school currently has the ability to petition up to whatever class they want, and very few actually do it.

Good point. My theory would be that playing for "top team in State" might change the perception some. I thought I read some teams cant go to 8A for some reason, (could be wrong), like ESL. If there was a reasonable and agreed upon ranking system top 12 wont have a choice but to play in the Champion bracket. Again just a working theory. But man this hypothetical Champions Bracket would be one hell of a Bracket!
For example this year could have looked like this:
1. LA
2. MC
3. ESL
4. LWE
5. NAZ
6. JCA
7. Batavia
8. Geneva
9. DGN
10. York
11. Marist
12. NC

 

[Snetsrak61]

I've mentioned a few times as well, but Ohio's competetive balance solution is very interesting as a supplement to enrollment based classes. It multiplies both private and public schools based on where they're getting students from. Public schools with a high number of transfers and private schools drawing from very wide range get dinged more. But at the end of the day it doesn't legislate that strong feeder programs can be a competetive advantage for either type of school. It only multiplies ones who reach outside those feeder programs/schools most. If it's just about "recruiting" that's fair to all types of schools.

But it'd be a big administrative burden that falls on schools to keep up. Brief article talks about its implementation and early results:

Competitive balance: How the OHSAA calculates competitive balance, and why it matters

The OHSAA implemented competitive balance in the 2017-18 season. What is it, how is it calculated and has it worked?

www.dispatch.com

 

[Snetsrak61]

My one and only problem with the “open class” idea that is brought up every year is the fact that the IHSA basically already has this. Every school currently has the ability to petition up to whatever class they want, and very few actually do it.

Yea I think there has to be some sort of carrot for schools, private and public alike, to make something like that a reality.

Or take it the other way and use the district policy as an "opt down" measure for teams who just are comfortable with something a little different. And you proportionally shrink down the State Championship / non district field into smaller classes that stack top teams naturally.

 

[4Afan]

Good point. My theory would be that playing for "top team in State" might change the perception some. I thought I read some teams cant go to 8A for some reason, (could be wrong), like ESL. If there was a reasonable and agreed upon ranking system top 12 wont have a choice but to play in the Champion bracket. Again just a working theory. But man this hypothetical Champions Bracket would be one hell of a Bracket!
For example this year could have looked like this:
1. LA
2. MC
3. ESL
4. LWE
5. NAZ
6. JCA
7. Batavia
8. Geneva
9. DGN
10. York
11. Marist
12. NC

Arizona has an "open" class but is determined by MaxPreps rankings and takes the top 16(?). Not sure if there is an option for those teams to opt out if they don't want to play in the open class.

 

[IHSAfan207]

Yes! I've been howling in the wind about this for years on this board! Glad to see someone else seeing the logic of it. Be prepared for lots of naysayers and nitpickers, though.



Very interesting idea indeed! Ranking will be a challenge and lots of folks will want you to have every T crossed and I dotted on that.



Again, I've been talking about this for years, but I was pilloried when I took your approach that smarter people than me can come up with the right formula. Talk with @stonedlizard about the system he has already devised.



Hmmm. Now you are getting into dangerous territory. People will mock you and say that it will diminish the non Champion Bracket class championships.



The elephant in the room. No easy fix.



I believe, more than anything, that the problem lies in a flawed enrollment-based classification system. I also believe that there are too many classes and too many qualifiers in each class. The more watered down the playoffs are with classes and enrollment-based qualifiers, the more they are susceptible to blowouts especially in 1-32 seeding.

Overall, I think your heart is in the right place on this. Thanks for taking a stab at it. Seriously, have a conversation with @stonedlizard about this. You'll be glad you did.

I appreciate the reply, I will be the first to admit some of my thoughts probably been shot down in the past. Haha, I knew I was entering dangerous waters, I had post ready to go but been sitting on it for few days waiting on the right timing to post, and this post came along and it seemed to fit. Figured the private vs public would eat it alive.

I agree with it being to watered down, I tried to keep it at the same amount of teams currently as I thought about the classification issues.

I took a team like West Chicago (for the record I have no rooting interest in this team one way or another) as the classic over classified team. They constantly loose top talent to Wheaton Academy and St Francis (right or wrong another argument for another day), play in one of the State's easier conferences but gets saddled in 7A solely based on the school size, I can make argument they would struggle in 4A.

 

[ramblinman]

I've mentioned a few times as well, but Ohio's competetive balance solution is very interesting as a supplement to enrollment based classes. It multiplies both private and public schools based on where they're getting students from. Public schools with a high number of transfers and private schools drawing from very wide range get dinged more. But at the end of the day it doesn't legislate that strong feeder programs can be a competetive advantage for either type of school. It only multiplies ones who reach outside those feeder programs/schools most. If it's just about "recruiting" that's fair to all types of schools.

But it'd be a big administrative burden that falls on schools to keep up. Brief article talks about its implementation and early results:

Competitive balance: How the OHSAA calculates competitive balance, and why it matters

The OHSAA implemented competitive balance in the 2017-18 season. What is it, how is it calculated and has it worked?

www.dispatch.com

Seriously, a large school with a robust athletics department would need a compliance officer just to keep up with OHSAA competitive balance reporting requirements.

 

[IHSAfan207]

Arizona has an "open" class but is determined by MaxPreps rankings and takes the top 16(?). Not sure if there is an option for those teams to opt out if they don't want to play in the open class.

Interesting, I am going to research this some. I guess I could see teams in the bottom end wanting to opt out, but man that would be a tough sell. Ask team 256 if they had team 12 talent if they would opt out, I bet you would get a different answer. Somehow the perception would need to change, the top 12 is the playoffs, and all other brackets are like the "bowl games" in college, still prestigious but nothing beats a Natty.

 

[ramblinman]

I took a team like West Chicago (for the record I have no rooting interest in this team one way or another) as the classic over classified team. They constantly loose top talent to Wheaton Academy and St Francis (right or wrong another argument for another day), play in one of the State's easier conferences but gets saddled in 7A solely based on the school size, I can make argument they would struggle in 4A.

Great example.

 

[Snetsrak61]

Seriously, a large school with a robust athletics department would need a compliance officer just to keep up with OHSAA competitive balance reporting requirements.

And Ohio Administrators apparently find the value in it. I can't find a ton of details on CA system, but I found some references with pride that they don't use enrollment methods. I know Iowa also recently rolled out changes to capture non enrollment measures.

It can be done, but if member schools don't want to put in the work and vote in a change then we just acknowledge enrollment is very crude and imperfect for any competitive balance goals.

 

[4Afan]

And Ohio Administrators apparently find the value in it. I can't find a ton of details on CA system, but I found some references with pride that they don't use enrollment methods. I know Iowa also recently rolled out changes to capture non enrollment measures.

It can be done, but if member schools don't want to put in the work and vote in a change then we just acknowledge enrollment is very crude and imperfect for any competitive balance goals.

Who says the want to put in the work and vote? This is all fun for us fans to dive into, but when was the last time a realistic solution was submitted to the IHSA for a vote? I think we're looking for a solution to a problem that isn't there.

Yes there will be certain individuals that cry about it, but it appears the majority are fine with the status quo.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Who says the want to put in the work and vote? This is all fun for us fans to dive into, but when was the last time a realistic solution was submitted to the IHSA for a vote? I think we're looking for a solution to a problem that isn't there.

Yes there will be certain individuals that cry about it, but it appears the majority are fine with the status quo.

I think most don’t care, the IHSA certainly doesn’t. They can’t even make the easy fix of 1-32 in all classes.

 

[doctor_d]

The proposals will be there this offseason, but they will probably be more lame than what’s been discussed here

 

[Snetsrak61]

The proposals will be there this offseason, but they will probably be more lame than what’s been discussed here

We're getting the weird "average enrollment of every school in your radius" vote aren't we? Can't wait to see that 😒

 

[4Afan]

The proposals will be there this offseason, but they will probably be more lame than what’s been discussed here

Why do you say that? Because there's more private schools favored to win? Privates won 6 titles, I believe, in 2022 but I don't recall any serious proposals for change.

 

[doctor_d]

Why do you say that? Because there's more private schools favored to win? Privates won 6 titles, I believe, in 2022 but I don't recall any serious proposals for change.

I’ve already read about some convoluted proposals out there with regards to neighborhood schools and average of said schools.
The bottom line is that the multiplier and waiver system is pretty solid, but I think the waiver should be harder to get to. I also think it shouldn’t have anything to do with the regular season.
IC for example was a favorite to win it all in 4A 2 years ago. They got upset by another CCL team in the quarterfinals, and this year didn’t make it because of their crazy hard schedule. Nothing about what they’ve done in the past decade has shown that they aren’t competitive in 4A, but if they achieve 5 win seasons in the next 2 years they have a cake walk to to 2A title.