"Everybody Should Live by the Multiplier..."

[Cat Box]

Provocative article. Interesting read with some strong opinions. I was not aware the multiplier has undergone three waiver changes in eight years...

http://www.rrstar.com/sports/20181108/everybody-should-live-by-multiplier

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

The IHSA gives private schools everything they want? Riiiight. Tell ya what, go ahead and drop the multiplier waiver policy as long as you also drop the success factor rule... or apply it to public schools as well. I’m pretty sure Lena-Winslow would be playing about 3a or so by now if they were subject to the success factor.

 

[Wilmatucky]

The IHSA gives private schools everything they want? Riiiight. Tell ya what, go ahead and drop the multiplier waiver policy as long as you also drop the success factor rule... or apply it to public schools as well. I’m pretty sure Lena-Winslow would be playing about 3a or so by now if they were subject to the success factor.

I have already shared my thoughts on how weak 3a is but I think Lena would be fine there.

 

[doctor_d]

I think the multiplier with waiver rule is pretty fair.
I think SF should apply to all.

 

[Golden Warrior]

I think the multiplier with waiver rule is pretty fair.
I think SF should apply to all.

100% agree

 

[Cat Box]

I’m pretty sure Lena-Winslow would be playing about 3a or so by now if they were subject to the success factor.

This statement is not filled with any bias --- Just Reality!
Well said.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

I have already shared my thoughts on how weak 3a is but I think Lena would be fine there.

That’s not the point.... but his complaining in advance sounds like excuse making in advance just in case they lose.

 

[ramblinman]

Provocative article. Interesting read with some strong opinions. I was not aware the multiplier has undergone three waiver changes in eight years...

http://www.rrstar.com/sports/20181108/everybody-should-live-by-multiplier

Very interesting timing of these comments by that Le-Win coach. If his team beats AC in this quarterfinal, then that game will totally render as moot his whining about AC and private schools before the game even took place. He will look like a fool, and people like me will say that AC BELONGS in 1A because they couldn't even make it to the semis, much less the finals, much less win the 1A title. If AC beats his team, then he will likely whine that "I told you so," and his school community, eager to place blame on an expedient scapegoat, will gobble up his anti-private school claptrap. To others, he will look like he was already whining about a loss that he knew was going to happen.

I now know who I'm rooting for even harder in this game.

 

[doctor_d]

Just read the article. Unfortunately, just like in politics, the extreme views get the publicity and become fodder for the opposing view. I believe there was a guy that used to post here under a few different handles that might have went down that path a time or two.

There is certainly ample evidence that, under optimum circumstances, private schools can have an extraordinarily high ceiling when it comes to gathering student athletes. Most private schools are pretty much in line with their public counterparts when you factor in the multiplier/ waiver.

This article is hyperbole. No need to try and make the individual school out to be the boogeymen when it’s the IHSA rule. Barely mentioned as a side note that AC won their first round game by a mere 6 points.

 

[stonedlizard]

It’s almost like enrollment alone isn’t a solid way to class teams in terms of competitive equity

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

There are only two private schools in 1A this year - AC & Ottawa Marquette. Marquette is only 165 kids actual enrollment, which has plummeted from their 3A runner-up in 1984...but has had 5 undefeated regular seasons in the last 7 in a conference of primarily similar sized schools...Couple of semi-final seasons...But they are basically dominating a bad conference...And they are an annual playoff opponent...But they only got to the playoffs 4 times between 1986 & 2011...

AC is different because they are the runt enrollment wise in a conference with great talent. But then to drop them into 1A for one year, and then win a game to bump them up again, is like huh...They make the playoffs every year 2002-2014...08 4A runner-up...11 3A champ...12 3A champ...13 9-4 3A semis, 14 5-5 3A, 15 4-5, 16 2-7, 17 5-5 2A...Does a team that has made the playoffs 14 of the last 16 seasons, with three championship weekends, need a multiplier waiver so they can win a game in 1A, and maybe a title in 1A...They might still be playing in 2A...and might have made the 3A semis this year if they had been in the 3A north bottom bracket...

 

[Cross Bones]

they could waive a portion of boundried schools' enrollment if they fail to win a playoff game for 6 years. In 2021 we'll be 7A if the IHSA applies the waiver equitably.

Should we still be a playoff program by then.

 

[Alexander32]

There are only two private schools in 1A this year - AC & Ottawa Marquette. Marquette is only 165 kids actual enrollment, which has plummeted from their 3A runner-up in 1984...but has had 5 undefeated regular seasons in the last 7 in a conference of primarily similar sized schools...Couple of semi-final seasons...But they are basically dominating a bad conference...And they are an annual playoff opponent...But they only got to the playoffs 4 times between 1986 & 2011...

AC is different because they are the runt enrollment wise in a conference with great talent. But then to drop them into 1A for one year, and then win a game to bump them up again, is like huh...They make the playoffs every year 2002-2014...08 4A runner-up...11 3A champ...12 3A champ...13 9-4 3A semis, 14 5-5 3A, 15 4-5, 16 2-7, 17 5-5 2A...Does a team that has made the playoffs 14 of the last 16 seasons, with three championship weekends, need a multiplier waiver so they can win a game in 1A, and maybe a title in 1A...They might still be playing in 2A...and might have made the 3A semis this year if they had been in the 3A north bottom bracket...

I think both the success factor and multiplier exemption are beneficial in terms of improving playoff competitiveness. However, I agree with those who think the success factor should be applied to both private and public schools, and I also think the exemption should revert back to when a 4 to 6 year period of time was used. Just because private schools don't make the football playoffs for a couple of years because they play in a very tough conference and lose five games, doesn't mean they won't dominate competition in a lower class level when they do make the playoffs in year three.

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

Purely a move out of the Lou Holtz media playbook...Talk up your opponent, then running clock them...

 

[ramblinman]

AC is different because they are the runt enrollment wise in a conference with great talent. But then to drop them into 1A for one year, and then win a game to bump them up again, is like huh...They make the playoffs every year 2002-2014...08 4A runner-up...11 3A champ...12 3A champ...13 9-4 3A semis, 14 5-5 3A, 15 4-5, 16 2-7, 17 5-5 2A...Does a team that has made the playoffs 14 of the last 16 seasons, with three championship weekends, need a multiplier waiver so they can win a game in 1A, and maybe a title in 1A...They might still be playing in 2A...and might have made the 3A semis this year if they had been in the 3A north bottom bracket...

Competitively speaking, should a team that won their first round 1A game by six points over the #8 seed team and a team that was running clocked in the 1A quarterfinals belong in a higher class?

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Competitively speaking, should a team that won their first round 1A game by six points over the #8 seed team and a team that was running clocked in the 1A quarterfinals belong in a higher class?

But, but... recruiting....

 

[Cat Box]

After Lena-Winslow wins back-to-back state titles they should be moved up a class...

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

Here's a concrete example for you...Let's use my favorite local private school, Kankakee Bishop McNamara...2 years to lose the multiplier...Actual enrollment 347, multiplied 572.55.

Football...The Irish won a state 3A title in 2015 at 13-1...16 miss the playoffs at 4-5...17 miss the playoffs at 3-6...Under the two year multiplier rule, Mac is now in 2A because they haven't won a playoff game in 2 years...2A has 4 unbeaten in the semis right now, but Mac clearly would have been dominant in 2A...It would be patently unfair to put a 4A favorite in 2A because of two bad seasons against jacked up competition...A 2 year multiplier rule in football almost screams for districts to balance regular season schedules for the smaller private powers...instead of being 5-4 losing to schools 2-3 classes bigger in the regular season, they would be 7-2 or 8-1 beating up on a 6-3 in the first round implementing the multiplier...And if you want the 2 year rule, don't weight the regular season...play 2A all year, then have the multiplier kick in and put you in 4A..

Basketball...Let's say you have a 6 team regional...a 2A regional with Mac could have any mix of Peotone, Wilmington, Reed-Custer, Momence, Clifton Central, Watseka, Herscher, Dwight, Seneca, Paxton-Buckley-Loda, Beecher...a 3A regional could include Manteno, Kankakee, Rich South, Rich East, Southland Prep, Pontiac, Prairie Central, Coal City, Morris, Rantoul, Plano, JCA, Providence...But you have to win the regional to get the point? Regular season doesn't matter? I have seen spans where Mac kept losing regional title games to schools which were having historic years...i.e. Herscher, then Dwight, then Watseka, then St. Anne, then Momence, then Manteno...Realistically, making the regional final should be the key, not winning the regional...

But there are sports where Mac maybe doesn't need the multiplier...soccer, lets say, where they usually get hammered by Herscher/Manteno/Peotone by 5 goals or worse...Wrestling, where the Irish have trouble fielding a full team - but weighted are still 1A...

 

[ramblinman]

Football...The Irish won a state 3A title in 2015 at 13-1...16 miss the playoffs at 4-5...17 miss the playoffs at 3-6...Under the two year multiplier rule, Mac is now in 2A because they haven't won a playoff game in 2 years...2A has 4 unbeaten in the semis right now, but Mac clearly would have been dominant in 2A...It would be patently unfair to put a 4A favorite in 2A because of two bad seasons against jacked up competition..

There is no two year multiplier rule. It's four years. If you don't win a first round game in four years, the multiplier is waived. Mac is multiplied up to 4A because they don't qualify for the waiver. Winning a first round game this year guarantees that Mac will continue to be multiplied for at least the next four years.

HOWEVER, if Mac loses in the semis or the finals, then my argument will be that they multiplier waiver rules are too harsh and they should have been allowed to participate in 2A. So what if they dominate it? Public schools like Rochester are allowed to dominate a class for years. Why is it such a travesty of justice in your book if a private school dominates a class for a single year?

 

[Cross Bones]

Oh, it's 4 years now? If the IHSA would apply the 1.65x divider evenly we could be in 7A next year where a team we beat is now in the semis. If the rules were applied evenly that is.

 

[Alexander32]

After Lena-Winslow wins back-to-back state titles they should be moved up a class...

Unrelated:

There are 42 individuals who completed brackets for all four of the smaller classes (4A through 1A). Here is the Prediction Leaderboard (after the quarterfinals) based on the combined points for all four classes:

1. Jim Watkins - 155 points
2. Pierre Garesche - 154
3. King Murph - 153
4. Brent Bainter - 151
5. Coalertown44 - 149
6. cts 1292 - 147
7. nathan mezo - 144
7. PayDirt92 - 144
9. bigshot85 - 143
9. Austin Powers - 143
9. Hillini74 - 143
12. Brady Seaburg - 141
12. Mark DAngelo - 141
14. william imlach - 140
14. David D'Angelo - 140
16. Brett Stevens - 138
17. Catch--22 - 137
17. Ekarb - 137
19. Matt Welko - 136
20. Matthew D'Angelo - 135

 

[iamgroot]

Why is it such a travesty of justice in your book if a private school dominates a class for a single year?

So much this.

If a public school dominates for years: "How fortunate for them. They must have great coaches and a solid work ethic and outstanding feeder programs."

If a private school dominates for even a year: "They recruit and give away tuition and payoff officials."

 

[Alexander32]

Unrelated:

There are 42 individuals who completed brackets for all four of the smaller classes (4A through 1A). Here is the Prediction Leaderboard (after the quarterfinals) based on the combined points for all four classes:

1. Jim Watkins - 155 points
2. Pierre Garesche - 154
3. King Murph - 153
4. Brent Bainter - 151
5. Coalertown44 - 149
6. cts 1292 - 147
7. nathan mezo - 144
7. PayDirt92 - 144
9. bigshot85 - 143
9. Austin Powers - 143
9. Hillini74 - 143
12. Brady Seaburg - 141
12. Mark DAngelo - 141
14. william imlach - 140
14. David D'Angelo - 140
16. Brett Stevens - 138
17. Catch--22 - 137
17. Ekarb - 137
19. Matt Welko - 136
20. Matthew D'Angelo - 135

21. David M. Gullstrand - 133 points
22. Angus Shields - 132
23. aquinashillmen - 131
24. PowerI66 - 130
24. BigGroff - 130
26. blownfuse - 128
27. Rob Oesterle - 127
28. Richie Palmer - 125
29. DonnyDBQ - 124
30. Northstar22 - 118
31. Chris Ashmore - 116
31. Darryl - 116
33. DMTHUNDER77 - 115
33. OklahomaDrill - 115
35. sac'em - 114
36. Black&White - 112
37. Super Dave - 110
38. Feeto - 104
39. kwysocki - 103
39. SteveO - 103
41. Mick Hall - 99
42. Brett M Goss - 97

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

After Lena-Winslow wins back-to-back state titles they should be moved up a class...

The Northwest Upstate Illini (Northwest) had four teams in the quarters...Lanark Eastland Pearl City remains undefeated in 2A semis, Lena-Winslow gets a conference rematch with Forreston in the north 1A semi - Forreston beat conference foe Dakota in the quarter...AC might have been 5-4 in that conference....Guaranteed another team in the 1A championship game already...EPC hosts GCMS in an attempt for the conference doubleheader...

 

[PowerI66]

21. David M. Gullstrand - 133 points
22. Angus Shields - 132
23. aquinashillmen - 131
24. PowerI66 - 130
24. BigGroff - 130
26. blownfuse - 128
27. Rob Oesterle - 127
28. Richie Palmer - 125
29. DonnyDBQ - 124
30. Northstar22 - 118
31. Chris Ashmore - 116
31. Darryl - 116
33. DMTHUNDER77 - 115
33. OklahomaDrill - 115
35. sac'em - 114
36. Black&White - 112
37. Super Dave - 110
38. Feeto - 104
39. kwysocki - 103
39. SteveO - 103
41. Mick Hall - 99
42. Brett M Goss - 97

Take this down immediately!

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

Today it is four years...Now according to the article the quote is:

"Next year, only the two prior years will count toward a multiplier."

I can read...despite merely being valedictorian at Manteno instead of a McNamara grad...

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Today it is four years...Now according to the article the quote is:

"Next year, only the two prior years will count toward a multiplier."

I can read...despite merely being valedictorian at Manteno instead of a McNamara grad...

That’s because the success factor used to be evaluated based on 4 years but they were so concerned to further punish private’s with the success factor more quickly and for a more extended period possibly they changed it to 4 years... to be consistent they then had to adjust the waiver time frame as well. They are far more worried about punishing the good teams than “rewarding” the struggling ones so they were willing to make that deal with the devil... I mean private schools.

I say get rid of the success factor and the multiplier waiver and leave everyone at the normal multiple and call it a day....

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

That’s because the success factor used to be evaluated based on 4 years but they were so concerned to further punish private’s with the success factor more quickly and for a more extended period possibly they changed it to 4 years... to be consistent they then had to adjust the waiver time frame as well. They are far more worried about punishing the good teams than “rewarding” the struggling ones so they were willing to make that deal with the devil... I mean private schools.

I say get rid of the success factor and the multiplier waiver and leave everyone at the normal multiple and call it a day....

As an example of why leaving it all alone would be best for the public’s look at this years semi’s.... instead of Nazareth being a threat to win 7a they would be down in 5a where only one private among Montini, Naz, and JCA could win. In 6a Notre Dame wouldn’t be there, they’d be up in 8a and already eliminated. It’s not going to happen but theoretically a private could win 5, 6, 7, and 8A thanks to the success factor and waiver where if they didn’t exist it’s more likely that they would win 5a only (possibly 7a with Mt Carmel).

In 4a did the success factor punish ICCP or a public 4a like Rochester? We will find out but if ICCP wins against Rochester it punished Rochester and even if BMac faces ICCP you could say every 4a public beat by ICCP throughout playoff run was punished by the success factor.... the unintended consequences are endless with this stuff.

 

[Wolffan64]

It’s almost like enrollment alone isn’t a solid way to class teams in terms of competitive equity

I think I remember you made a post a year or two ago where the success factor would be applied to all teams. I think that was a pretty good system but I don’t see anything like that ever being in implemented

 

[PanthersWildcats86]

As an example of why leaving it all alone would be best for the public’s look at this years semi’s.... instead of Nazareth being a threat to win 7a they would be down in 5a where only one private among Montini, Naz, and JCA could win. In 6a Notre Dame wouldn’t be there, they’d be up in 8a and already eliminated. It’s not going to happen but theoretically a private could win 5, 6, 7, and 8A thanks to the success factor and waiver where if they didn’t exist it’s more likely that they would win 5a only (possibly 7a with Mt Carmel).

In 4a did the success factor punish ICCP or a public 4a like Rochester? We will find out but if ICCP wins against Rochester it punished Rochester and even if BMac faces ICCP you could say every 4a public beat by ICCP throughout playoff run was punished by the success factor.... the unintended consequences are endless with this stuff.

Actually, in 4A IC is the replacement for Phillips...even if Phillips took the voluntary jump to 6A....A Mac - IC 4A final success factors both to 5A, as SHG loses the factor and drops back to 5A....5A maybe should become the private party...

 

[doctor_d]

As an example of why leaving it all alone would be best for the public’s look at this years semi’s.... instead of Nazareth being a threat to win 7a they would be down in 5a where only one private among Montini, Naz, and JCA could win. In 6a Notre Dame wouldn’t be there, they’d be up in 8a and already eliminated. It’s not going to happen but theoretically a private could win 5, 6, 7, and 8A thanks to the success factor and waiver where if they didn’t exist it’s more likely that they would win 5a only (possibly 7a with Mt Carmel).

In 4a did the success factor punish ICCP or a public 4a like Rochester? We will find out but if ICCP wins against Rochester it punished Rochester and even if BMac faces ICCP you could say every 4a public beat by ICCP throughout playoff run was punished by the success factor.... the unintended consequences are endless with this stuff.

I think it depends on one's bias and outlook, no pun intended. I don't particularly see a problem with private schools winning 4 or 5 of 8 titles in a given year. What I don't want to see is one or two of them going through their respective class like a buzzsaw winning every game by 40. That isn't even happening this year so it's kind of a moot point. Seems like whatever has been implemented has been working to an extent.

At any rate, I think the goal should be some resemblance of parity within the classes. That is kind of the reason that classifications exist. I know there are people out there that would be happy if a private school never won another championship. Conversely, there are those that find extreme glee when any private school dismantles a public opponent. If either of those extremes is where you find your thoughts, you probably shouldn't be trying to participate in any reasonable discussion on the subject.

 

[Wilmatucky]

I think it depends on one's bias and outlook, no pun intended. I don't particularly see a problem with private schools winning 4 or 5 of 8 titles in a given year. What I don't want to see is one or two of them going through their respective class like a buzzsaw winning every game by 40. That isn't even happening this year so it's kind of a moot point. Seems like whatever has been implemented has been working to an extent.

At any rate, I think the goal should be some resemblance of parity within the classes. That is kind of the reason that classifications exist. I know there are people out there that would be happy if a private school never won another championship. Conversely, there are those that find extreme glee when any private school dismantles a public opponent. If either of those extremes is where you find your thoughts, you probably shouldn't be trying to participate in any reasonable discussion on the subject.

I am all about the most competitive football that we can put on the field. If we have some kind of checks of balances where there is a multiplier or success factor rule and that leads to more competitive games then I am all for both. I agree with you that as we should not see a team rolling to a title by clocking everyone in the playoffs. If privates are moved up based on success and still win a title then awesome, I hope it gave us some good games to watch in the process.

Wilmington has lost to dominant private schools multiple times that I can recall. Would potentially have won hardware in a few of those years I'm sure. I'm not upset about it. It's the way it is. Some of those games were awesome to watch even though we lost.

 

[CG Fan]

Public school thinking here. At the high school level school enrollment does play a part in the power of the team, however the coaching and the program plays an equal or larger power of the teams quality. I believe that the goal is to play the most competitive football and to highlight players that seek to play at the next level. I think that a system needs to be put in place to weigh 4 factors. When determining which bracket team would fall.
1. Male population
2. Strength of Schedule
3. Season record
4. Program success factor