First round blowouts and running clocks

[ramblinman]

The following first round games were decided by margins of 30 pts (5 TDs) or more:

Oswego 56, Curie 14
LWE 63, Taft 15
Palatine 34, Notre Dame 0
St Charles E 45, Lockport 0
Plainfield N 42, Highland Park 0
Lake Zurich 40, Harlem 0
Jacobs 51, Lincoln Park 8
Batavia 42, McHenry 12
LWC 50, Reavis 20
Prairie Ridge 41, Deerfield 0
Montini 41, St. Ignatius 8
Lake Forest 40, R-B 7
Crete Monee 37, Glenwood 6
SHG 57, Normal W 20
Shepard 41, Morgan Park 7
Sterling 45, Westinghouse 6
Rochelle 56, Ridgewood 14
Nazareth 46, Goode 6
Vernon Hills 56, Urban Prep/Bronzeville 6
Marian Central 49, Payton 14
Centralia 44, Mahomet-Seymour 0
Herscher 44, IVC 0
Phillips 46, Kewanee 7
Johnsburg 56, Marengo 14
Althoff 53, Carterville 14
Mt Zion 41, RIchland County 0
Rochester 52, Civic Memorial 7
Herrin 41, Watseka 7
IC 49, St Joe Ogden 8
PBL 50, Mercer County 2
Wilmington 51, Corliss 8
Byron 44, Eureka 14
Westville 57, Marine 0
Newton 61, Auburn 29
Carlinville 76, EAWR 19
Williamsville 56, Hillsboro 12
Mt Carmel 53, Sesser Valier 16
Newman Central 50, Clifton 6
Deer Creek Mackinaw 58, Orion 10
Chicago Hope Academy 43, Knoxville 8
Fulton 42, Momence 7
Tri Valley 49, Rushville Industry 0
Du Quoin 65, Red Bud 14
Maroa Forsyth 42, Johnston City 6
Shelbyville 46, Carmi White County 6
Aquin 52, Oakwood 13
Forreston 67, Luther North 0
Lena Winslow 44, Bureau Valley 14
Tuscola 52, Oblong 7
Carrollton 46, Camp Point Central 0
St Teresa 54, Cumberland 20
Athens 60, Pawnee 22

52 games in all. Of those, 12 were shutouts and 31 finished with a running clock. An additional 20 teams scored between 2 and 9 points.


8 classes with 16 games in each class result in 128 first round games. Of those 128 first round games, 41% were decided by margins of 30 points or greater. Of those 128 games, 24%, roughly one out of every 4, ended with running clocks.

You also have a situation where 32 (62%) of those games saw the losing team put up 9 points or less.

Why is this acceptable? Why do some people just shrug their shoulders, sigh, and claim that playoff blowouts are inevitable?

This is NOT a public/private issue. This will NOT be solved by separating private schools into their own playoff division. This can ONLY be solved if people agree that it is a problem that needs attention.

 

[EdgyTim]

Get out of my head! Stop it!

 

[Wassup13]

6 classes is the answer with no separate north & south seedings. It reduces the number of teams in the field. We had it right a long time ago.

It reduces the number of teams in the playoffs by 64 teams.

These 64 teams can have their own so-called NIT tournament. This way the IHSA still gets their $$ but the games will be much better.

 

[Cross Bones]

We should let large schools that arent very good play small schools who ARE good for their size play each other so that large schools that arent very good can still win.

-essentially ramblinman's argument

 

[Cross Bones]

1A Forreston beat Luther North 67-0, so instead of them playing Luther North they should play someone on their competitive level like Lincoln Way East who won 63-15

seems legit

 

[ramblinman]

Get out of my head! Stop it!

You should be thanking me. I just crunched the numbers for you. Feel free to use them and bring as much attention as possible to this issue. Your bully pulpit is much bigger than mine.

 

[ramblinman]

We should let large schools that arent very good play small schools who ARE good for their size play each other so that large schools that arent very good can still win.

-essentially ramblinman's argument

No, that's essentially your misrepresentation of my argument.

 

[epicbret]

 

[ramblinman]

1A Forreston beat Luther North 67-0, so instead of them playing Luther North they should play someone on their competitive level like Lincoln Way East who won 63-15

seems legit

It's really a shame that someone as intelligent as you resorts to hyperbole as much as you do. But, I guess gimmicks are all you are left with when you can't come up with a cogent and persuasive argument any other way.

 

[capnbillhitters]

Maybe we need a list of teams that would not have made a 6 Class field but remain alive and kicking.

We can start with WV who now, according to Edgy, is the #10 team in town.

 

[Wassup13]

Maybe we need a list of teams that would not have made a 6 Class field but remain alive and kicking.

We can start with WV who now, according to Edgy, is the #10 team in town.

I think we all know WV is the exception, at least I do because I really follow them. They finished in the 8A semi's last year and just play in a very tough conference which never gives you a easy game.

Wassup

 

[1111SouthFirst]

Blowouts in the first couple rounds of state playoff games are not limited to football. It happens in virtually every IHSA sport. Its the blowouts that happen in the finals that always have me shaking my head. When it happens in the finals you have to wonder why one bracket was overall so much better than the other.

 

[Wassup13]

When it happens in the finals you have to wonder why one bracket was overall so much better than the other.

North bracket in the upper classes were usually better than the south brackets but not always. I don't like the separation of seedings in the north and south brackets.

 

[Cross Bones]

It's really a shame that someone as intelligent as you resorts to hyperbole as much as you do. But, I guess gimmicks are all you are left with when you can't come up with a cogent and persuasive argument any other way.

ramblin, its the ONLY logical conclusion someone can come to since you still refuse to post up a formula or give us an example of a class and how you came to it which wouldnt give us those results. Youve been saying this for at least 2 years. That's plenty of time.

 

[Bwm57]

But aren't most if not all in favor of 1-32 seeding?
Isn't this exactly what you would expect with that kind of seeding?

 

[Cross Bones]

Blowouts in the first couple rounds of state playoff games are not limited to football. It happens in virtually every IHSA sport. Its the blowouts that happen in the finals that always have me shaking my head. When it happens in the finals you have to wonder why one bracket was overall so much better than the other.

Sometimes one team is just clicking and the other isnt. Even on evenly matched teams.

 

[capnbillhitters]

I think we all know WV is the exception, at least I do because I really follow them. They finished in the 8A semi's last year and just play in a very tough conference which never gives you a easy game.

Wassup

Agreed. My point is that big tough conferences would lose very good teams making a 6 class field. Each year DVC has really good 5-4 teams that would be 7-2 or even 9-0 if they played in some conferences.

6 Class field limits the attractiveness of playing a really tough schedule. Round 1 is really just a 10th regular season game for some. If you're running the table, you get the luxury of a running clock opponent. If you trip up a couple of timese you get to go on the road.

Now I agree that the IHSA could do better to incorporate SoS. And I would like to see some smaller classes collapse. I love IC, but they may have a running clock in every playoff game.

Funny but I always assumed you privates loved the 8 classes because you always seem to have a quality team in 6-8 title games a year.

 

[ramblinman]

Blowouts in the first couple rounds of state playoff games are not limited to football. It happens in virtually every IHSA sport. Its the blowouts that happen in the finals that always have me shaking my head. When it happens in the finals you have to wonder why one bracket was overall so much better than the other.

Ah, but the difference is that you have to have achieved a certain amount of success in the regular season to qualify for football playoffs, whereas all teams qualify in other sports. Furthermore, qualification and seeding in football is strictly objective. In the other sports, seeding is done by coaches.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Golden Warrior]

Sterling was leading Westinghouse 42-0 before the first qtr was over. Westinghouse had four turnovers in the quarter. I truly felt sorry for them. They had no business being in the playoffs. Neither team got much out of the contest. Really just a waste of time. Weather was nice. That's about it.

 

[pjjp]

Its the blowouts that happen in the finals that always have me shaking my head. When it happens in the finals you have to wonder why one bracket was overall so much better than the other.

More times than not, the reason for blowouts in the finals are:

1. North / South bracketing does not provide the best chance of the two best teams making the finals (1-32 seeding gives a better chance).
2. The current system of seeding is objective but not accurate. It does not factor in strength-of-schedule.

The above two realities are the main reasons why you see championship game blowouts, IMO.

 

[ramblinman]

ramblin, its the ONLY logical conclusion someone can come to since you still refuse to post up a formula or give us an example of a class and how you came to it which wouldnt give us those results. Youve been saying this for at least 2 years. That's plenty of time.

It is not the only logical conclusion. It is your conclusion that was arrived at through hyperbole and finding examples that I assure you would not occur. For the bazillionth time, the system would be influenced by enrollment.

You would really have much more of a leg to stand on if you were to try to defend keeping a team like Bradley Bourbonnais in 7A not in the most competitive class.

 

[Cross Bones]

Sterling was leading Westinghouse 42-0 before the first qtr was over. Westinghouse had four turnovers in the quarter. I truly felt sorry for them. They had no business being in the playoffs. Neither team got much out of the contest. Really just a waste of time. Weather was nice. That's about it.

In ramblin's playoff system you could play Palatine in the 1st round and we could say Sterling didnt belong in the playoffs.

In ramblin's playoffs Fremd is not in a competitive class with Rice. Fremd would get to play Kewanee.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

It is not the only logical conclusion. It is your conclusion that was arrived at through hyperbole and finding examples that I assure you would not occur. For the bazillionth time, the system would be influenced by enrollment.

You would really have much more of a leg to stand on if you were to try to defend keeping a team like Bradley Bourbonnais in 7A not in the most competitive class.

BB is the poster child for why your system is ignorant...they will see a huge drop off next year, but in your plan they will be 8A next year because they were good this year??? LOL

Why punish a really good 6A team and keep them from winning a state title and instead shoving them into 8A??

 

[Cross Bones]

BB is the poster child for why your system is ignorant...they will see a huge drop off next year, but in your plan they will be 8A next year because they were good this year??? LOL

Why punish a really good 6A team and keep them from winning a state title and instead shoving them into 8A??

Exactly. Furthermore he would put BB in the "Super Good Team Class" because they beat an awful Bolingbrook by a single point. And (had we made it) we would get to play DuQuoin in the "Pretty Terrible Class" because we're not that good, but DuQuoin is good for a 2A school. This is somehow more fair than playing schools your size.

 

[Cross Bones]

What if boxing was classified that way?

Money Mayweather you get to fight Ali because you are in the "Great Boxer Class"

 

[jcrewx7]

Money Mayweather you get to fight Ali because you are in the "Great Boxer Class"[/QUOTE]

Would love to see Mayweather fight Ali!!

 

[HHSTigerFan]

If we had a really good class class, we should sit those kids out their junior year, go 1-8 and go win ourselves a 2A title their senior year..

 

[bgoss6474]

Why is this acceptable? Why do some people just shrug their shoulders, sigh, and claim that playoff blowouts are inevitable?

Ramblin, your argument seems to go something like this:

52 of the 128 first round playoff games were blowouts.
So, there is a problem.

How do you get from the first premise to that conclusion? Why should I accept that there is a problem, and what do you think it is?

 

[jwarigaku]

Capn,

See we have found common ground again. Until IHSA dismisses the playoff point system which is meaningless and supports these types of blowouts, they will continue. I have provided, on several occasions, the PA district 3 mathematical playoff ranking system. There are times teams with 5-5 records( and worse) have been seeded while 8-2 teams were left out because of the quality of the opponents and challenge the team experienced during the season. I've seen Illinois teams load their schedule with teams that they know will get high playoff point totals even though they play in horrible conferences. Additionally, automatically qualifying for the playoffs at 6-3 limit the possibilities of quality teams that play in tough conferences. It's time for the IHSA to decide if they want to crown the best team in each class or if they want geographic representation.

Agreed. My point is that big tough conferences would lose very good teams making a 6 class field. Each year DVC has really good 5-4 teams that would be 7-2 or even 9-0 if they played in some conferences.

6 Class field limits the attractiveness of playing a really tough schedule. Round 1 is really just a 10th regular season game for some. If you're running the table, you get the luxury of a running clock opponent. If you trip up a couple of timese you get to go on the road.

Now I agree that the IHSA could do better to incorporate SoS. And I would like to see some smaller classes collapse. I love IC, but they may have a running clock in every playoff game.

Funny but I always assumed you privates loved the 8 classes because you always seem to have a quality team in 6-8 title games a year.

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

?..play in a very tough conference which never gives you a easy game.

This is the problem. Teams who play in the tougher conference have a poorer record than teams who play in an easier conference.

How do you legislate against that? Answer: you don't.

 

[ClownBaby]

In the last year of 6 classes 32% of first round games ended with a team winning by 30points or more and 16% would have qualified for current running clock rules. I like 6 classes better but first round mismatches are nothing that was created by going to 8 classes.

 

[epicbret]

Guys, Ali cannot fight anyone right now.

 

[mc140]

Ah, but the difference is that you have to have achieved a certain amount of success in the regular season to qualify for football playoffs, whereas all teams qualify in other sports. Furthermore, qualification and seeding in football is strictly objective. In the other sports, seeding is done by coaches.

Apples and oranges.

There are a ton of blowouts in second round of basketball which is the football equivalent of first round.

 

[ramblinman]

In ramblin's playoff system you could play Palatine in the 1st round and we could say Sterling didnt belong in the playoffs.

In ramblin's playoffs Fremd is not in a competitive class with Rice. Fremd would get to play Kewanee.

Interesting how you seem to know these things about my system, but I don't know them. How is that, Bones?

 

[ramblinman]

Exactly. Furthermore he would put BB in the "Super Good Team Class" because they beat an awful Bolingbrook by a single point. And (had we made it) we would get to play DuQuoin in the "Pretty Terrible Class" because we're not that good, but DuQuoin is good for a 2A school. This is somehow more fair than playing schools your size.

You are a sick man.

 

[ramblinman]

Ramblin, your argument seems to go something like this:

52 of the 128 first round playoff games were blowouts.
So, there is a problem.

How do you get from the first premise to that conclusion? Why should I accept that there is a problem, and what do you think it is?

I happen to think that 41% of first round playoff games decided by margins of 30 pts or more is a problem. What percentage would it have to be for you to think the same way? What is your threshold?

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

I think we all know WV is the exception, at least I do because I really follow them. They finished in the 8A semi's last year and just play in a very tough conference which never gives you a easy game.

Wassup

Yeah there are some exceptions out there and WV is probably one of them. They wouldn't have made a 192 team 6 class field at 5-4 and would have been in the other 64 team team field playing Luther North.

I like Stone Lizards Hunger games division where you get all those "top" teams OPTING IN to play in the open division of 32 (maybe expand to 64 teams?) beastly teams. And then have the other 6 classes seeded 1 thru 32.

 

[ClownBaby]

I happen to think that 41% of first round playoff games decided by margins of 30 pts or more is a problem. What percentage would it have to be for you to think the same way? What is your threshold?

What do you think is acceptable number of 30 point blow outs?

 

[Normdog]

Totally disagree with Ramblin. it as Cap. alluded to, that line of thinking assumes that all conferences/schedules during the regular season are created equal and they simply are not.

the IHSA system while far from perfect appears to error on the side of letting in a larger amount of schools than to error on a smaller amount of schools, and really what is the harm in that? so 30% of 40% are blow outs in the first round? so what? the boys get to play an additional week and the schools get the excitement of making the playoffs. if they don't belong there, they get blown out, no harm no foul. These boys for the most part get 2 years and 2 years only to be able to compete in P/O's, its a memory they will have for a lifetime, even if they get blown out. Just over half the schools make it, meaning about half don't. its not a professional league.

lets look at some schools that either would have just made it or not made it at all under a different system.

In 8A
Fremd (25 seed) Win
Huntley (24 seed) Win
WV (31 seed) Win over 9-0 team in a "tough" conference (most years)
Maine South (26 seed) Win

in 7A
Jacobs (28 seed) Win (running clock over 8-1 team)

Agree that all divisions should be seeded 1-32 and eliminate North/South

 

[King MJ]

I think in lower classes, this is just unavoidable. In 1a-4a, there are usually 3-5 teams which are just eons above everyone else. You see blowouts in semis and sometimes even in the title game.


Larger classes are a different story. Some of these blowouts are because of a dominant teams, other show a major mismatch. Even worse is when the "lower seed" wins the blowouts.

In fairness, if you remember CPL teams and 1-4a games. Here is your blowouts list


Palatine 34, Notre Dame 0
St Charles E 45, Lockport 0
Plainfield N 42, Highland Park 0
Lake Zurich 40, Harlem 0
Batavia 42, McHenry 12
LWC 50, Reavis 20
Prairie Ridge 41, Deerfield 0
Montini 41, St. Ignatius 8
Lake Forest 40, R-B 7
Crete Monee 37, Glenwood 6
SHG 57, Normal W 20

Of these, Palatine, SHG could be dominant teams who might have a few blowouts left.

ND, Lockport, McHenry, St. Iggy are in top conferences and i dont think anyone would complain about their inclusions.

So we are really talking about a few teams who dont belong -- HP, Harlem, Reavis, Deerfield, RB and Glenwood. Would any of the proposed solutions have not included these teams in playoffs?