This Public/Private Debate I think I have the answer. POLL.
- Thread starter corey90
- Start date
For fun I just looked up MaxPreps rankings at the end of the season and this would be how it would shake out if we used their rankings for the playoffs. Actually doesn’t look to bad. The IHSA could probably use several rankings and computerize them to get the most accurate but this would solve the issue of teams being put in the wrong class. IMO
8A
MC
LA
ESL
LWE
St.Rita
York
GBW
SHG
IC
Marist
7A
Batavia
Lena-Winslow
NAZ
B.Rice
Lyons
Sycamore
Warren
MS
Palatine
Lamont
6A
SCN
Providence
Hersey
JCA
Prospect
DGN
Peoria
Prairie Ridge
Edwardsville
Lake Zurich
Each year stands on it’s own so every year rankings change. Now the IHSA could use the preseason rankings or the end of season rankings or a combination of both. The objective is to get the teams in the correct class for the playoffs. What we currently have is a joke. Everyone knows MC, LA ESL among others should be in 8A. They can and have competed with 8A schools every year in the regular season. The point of the playoffs is to make sure teams are paired correctly so we have competitive games to win a state championship. If any of theses schools have an off year they will be ranked according for the next season.
Ok beat me up.
If you want to be the best play the best.
8A
MC
LA
ESL
LWE
St.Rita
York
GBW
SHG
IC
Marist
7A
Batavia
Lena-Winslow
NAZ
B.Rice
Lyons
Sycamore
Warren
MS
Palatine
Lamont
6A
SCN
Providence
Hersey
JCA
Prospect
DGN
Peoria
Prairie Ridge
Edwardsville
Lake Zurich
Each year stands on it’s own so every year rankings change. Now the IHSA could use the preseason rankings or the end of season rankings or a combination of both. The objective is to get the teams in the correct class for the playoffs. What we currently have is a joke. Everyone knows MC, LA ESL among others should be in 8A. They can and have competed with 8A schools every year in the regular season. The point of the playoffs is to make sure teams are paired correctly so we have competitive games to win a state championship. If any of theses schools have an off year they will be ranked according for the next season.
Ok beat me up.
If you want to be the best play the best.
See ya. You don’t like it because it makes you play a class you should play. Dr you can delete yourself. Thank you. 😊
I don’t think the team I follow would be much affected here as they are a small school and not ranked in the overall top 30 by any metric. I’m just not buying that Lena-Winslow, as good as they are, would be truly considered the 12th best team in the state, and as such, play in the 7A bracket. Some years I think they’d compete well up to maybe a 3A level, but I don’t think they would win titles at that level, especially not this past year.
They would be ranked accordingly. MaxPreps ranked them but if we used the start and ending rankings and again IHSA could use as many rankings as needed to come up with a ranking that is fair. We are talking only playoffs Lina-Winslow should not have a cake walk to a state championship. Play the best to be a state champion.
There would have to be some kind of enrollment cap. L-W is great. Would I like to see them play in 2A or 3A? As a fan, sure. IC I think could compete in 5A and go deep, but 8A?
I know you are a LWE fan, so I’m just not sure how in touch you are with small school football. LWE is a huge school and you guys already play “the best” by virtue of being in the largest class.
Of course there are plenty of teams that would be “competitive” up a class or two or maybe more, but they would all be extremely unlikely to win.
Your proposal could end up watering down the smaller classes considerably.
I don’t think so.
Everyone would stay in their current class unless they were ranked high in the state rankings. 1-30. This is why I said the preseason rankings. The preseason rankings look at how many returning starters etc. if you do it at the end of the season you get the teams that won state and then they get placed based on their record and the eye test. I think the IHSA could come up with a computerized ranking that would take all of this into account. I think Lina-Winslow would be placed in a class that they would fit. When did they ever start the season ranked in the top 10? Or 20 in the state? They could complete fine in 6A but it wouldn’t be a cake walk to a state championship. Listen in the end I want it to be fair regardless of LWE or any other school. I also don’t want it where it is now.
MaxPreps rankings, which use the Freeman CalPreps rankings for their website, are normally pretty good; but they are known for ranking the best of the small schools too high. Using the Massey Power Ratings at the end of the regular season, which are the most accurate rankings available, provides the following top-ten teams.
1- East St. Louis (7-2)
2- Mt. Carmel (9-0)
3- Loyola (8-1)
4- Lincoln-Way East (9-0)
5- Joliet Catholic (7-2)
6- Wheaton North (8-1)
7- Marist (6-3)
8- Batavia (6-3)
9- Bolingbrook (6-3)
10- St. Rita (7-2)
Six teams are brought up to 8A from lower classes (East St. Louis, Mt. Carmel, Joliet Catholic, Wheaton North, Batavia and St. Rita. Five of the six seem plausible. Joliet Catholic was rated improperly. Bolingbrook was also rated improperly, but at least they were already an 8A team. doctor_d has already pointed out flaws in the MaxPreps/CalPreps rankings. So the first problem your proposal will encounter is finding a mechanism to rank the top 30 teams that most people will find acceptable.
If that first problem can be overcome, a second problem exists. While six teams are brought up from the lower levels to make 8A stronger at the top, 12 8A teams that are ranked from 11th to 30th are dropped to lower class levels, thereby making the middle of 8A much weaker. Your proposal will make the disparity between the top ten teams in 8A and the remainder of the field much wider. By definition, none of the other 22 teams in 8A can be a top-30 team in the state. This will lead to more first and second round blowouts, which has already been expressed by many on this message board to be a major concern. Your proposal makes an existing problem worse.
The 12 teams to be dropped, again according to the Massey ratings, are:
York - ranked 11th - to 7A
Palatine - 14th - to 7A
Maine South - 15th - to 7A
Warren - 16th - to 7A
Neuqua Valley - 17th - to 7A
Glenbard West - 18th - to 7A
Naperville North - 19th - to 7A
Lockport - 23rd - to 6A
Naperville Central - 24th - to 6A
Plainfield North - 27th - to 6A
Glenbrook South - 28th - to 6A
Homewood-Flossmoor - 30th - to 6A
Your proposal brings six teams up from lower levels and drops 12 teams down to lower levels. To make up that six-team deficit, the six largest schools remaining in 7A will need to be brought up to compete in 8A, none of which can be a top-30 team. This means, for example, 27th ranked and unbeaten Plainfield North will be dropped from 8A to 6A, to be replaced by a smaller and lower ranked school. Somehow I think that smaller and lower ranked school might find it objectionable to be moved from 7A up to 8A.
I, along with doctor_d and many others (according to your poll), do not favor your proposal. Nevertheless, I applaud you for thinking outside the proverbial box and trying to make the system better.
1- East St. Louis (7-2)
2- Mt. Carmel (9-0)
3- Loyola (8-1)
4- Lincoln-Way East (9-0)
5- Joliet Catholic (7-2)
6- Wheaton North (8-1)
7- Marist (6-3)
8- Batavia (6-3)
9- Bolingbrook (6-3)
10- St. Rita (7-2)
Six teams are brought up to 8A from lower classes (East St. Louis, Mt. Carmel, Joliet Catholic, Wheaton North, Batavia and St. Rita. Five of the six seem plausible. Joliet Catholic was rated improperly. Bolingbrook was also rated improperly, but at least they were already an 8A team. doctor_d has already pointed out flaws in the MaxPreps/CalPreps rankings. So the first problem your proposal will encounter is finding a mechanism to rank the top 30 teams that most people will find acceptable.
If that first problem can be overcome, a second problem exists. While six teams are brought up from the lower levels to make 8A stronger at the top, 12 8A teams that are ranked from 11th to 30th are dropped to lower class levels, thereby making the middle of 8A much weaker. Your proposal will make the disparity between the top ten teams in 8A and the remainder of the field much wider. By definition, none of the other 22 teams in 8A can be a top-30 team in the state. This will lead to more first and second round blowouts, which has already been expressed by many on this message board to be a major concern. Your proposal makes an existing problem worse.
The 12 teams to be dropped, again according to the Massey ratings, are:
York - ranked 11th - to 7A
Palatine - 14th - to 7A
Maine South - 15th - to 7A
Warren - 16th - to 7A
Neuqua Valley - 17th - to 7A
Glenbard West - 18th - to 7A
Naperville North - 19th - to 7A
Lockport - 23rd - to 6A
Naperville Central - 24th - to 6A
Plainfield North - 27th - to 6A
Glenbrook South - 28th - to 6A
Homewood-Flossmoor - 30th - to 6A
Your proposal brings six teams up from lower levels and drops 12 teams down to lower levels. To make up that six-team deficit, the six largest schools remaining in 7A will need to be brought up to compete in 8A, none of which can be a top-30 team. This means, for example, 27th ranked and unbeaten Plainfield North will be dropped from 8A to 6A, to be replaced by a smaller and lower ranked school. Somehow I think that smaller and lower ranked school might find it objectionable to be moved from 7A up to 8A.
I, along with doctor_d and many others (according to your poll), do not favor your proposal. Nevertheless, I applaud you for thinking outside the proverbial box and trying to make the system better.
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Thanks
If your saying the rankings are garbage then why are the doing the rankings. I mean a lot of these schools like it when they are ranked high and even pound their chest saying they can play in the upper levels even the experts per say must believe it otherwise they would never rank them as high as they did. How many people said the. SHG could complete with the top teams? I do see what your saying and don’t disagree with some of it but you can’t have it both ways. You either want in or you don’t. What does it look like if you use the preseason rankings? I would assume a bit different which is why I suggested it rather than the end of season rankings. Let’s face it your not going to make everyone happy but right now we have a lot of people not happy and going as far to say privates are cheaters because they recruit. Not so.
Perhaps the proposal would be more acceptable if it stipulated no top-30 team could be dropped from its normal classification. Teams could only be moved to a higher classification if their ranking so designated. That way, in the example provided above, 8A would only lose its six smallest schools that were not ranked in the top 30. The 12 teams identified above would remain in 8A; and the following six would be dropped to 7A: Andrew, Glenbard East, Edwardsville, Conant, Plainfield South and Belleville East.
Human poll biases? Computer algorithms with their own sets of biased weighting of factors? Interesting thread featuring a lot of work by many posters, but isn't this a case of "more is less," upon stepping back and really looking at this?
I am surprised that Flyer fans have not chimed in on this proposal. I mean this give ESL the opportunity to play the best of the best in the state. So far it crickets and honestly that makes no sense.
ESL
You guys disappoint. Your giving the opportunity to chime in about playing up with the big boys in your same state and your quiet as mice. Is it because your worried it will be more difficult to win a state championship? 🤔
You guys disappoint. Your giving the opportunity to chime in about playing up with the big boys in your same state and your quiet as mice. Is it because your worried it will be more difficult to win a state championship? 🤔
ESL's conference rules do not allow them to move up any higher than they do now. It goes back to when the playoffs were broken down by geographic quads. The conference members would get beat up by ESL during the season and if they qualified for the playoffs they would knocked out by ESL.
You miss the concept. If you go by the rankings they would play in 8A. It’s a dream but heck it would be fun . I like to see teams play that never get the opportunity. East side playing LWE is a dream but heck you never know. Flyers Griffins, I like the sound of it. 👍
Corey ,
ESL fan base does not owe you an explanation on a post that is for entertainment purposes only. Trying to use your logic they we are afraid of not winning a championship will not work either. As mentioned before there are several top large schools that have not returned emails or phone calls about regular season play . So there is no need for Anyone from ESL to reply to your rhetoric. And to think though you were one poster that I use to hold a n high regards. I guess sooner are later it would have came out.
Flyer
No disrespect I love you guys and honestly just trying to get you guys on board. Maybe some day it will happen. You guys can play with the 8A teams it would be fun to watch and it would be competitive. Maybe one day they will get a non conference game. 👍
I would rather use modern algorithms than some biased mathematicians old school numbers, that don’t take into account the success of a program year after year or rankings. Hey and I am an old dude. We all know the success of certain programs in every class year after year, why not place them in the correct class to be competitive. My idea may not satisfy everyone but no one has come up with anything worth a damn that I have seen to this point.
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