Even in his absence, Jay gives us debate.....
I still have some faith in Pace, huge draft coming.
I still have some faith in Pace, huge draft coming.
The Corey/Wassup Celebration
- Thread starter Dr. Mirakle
- Start date
Vikes, Snetsrak61 and anyone else who is looking at this objectively and looking at the big picture, all points you make are solid and true.
If anyone thinks being solid in all positions isn't as important as a good QB let me say this. We need look no further than Green Bay to see what a great QB can do without enough help. They did go further than I thought they might and no doubt Rodgers was the major reason. But, when it came time to beat Atlanta they got smoked. All I heard during the broadcast was, "Aaron Rodgers needs help." That is true. You can bet GB will be making the necessary decisions to get Rodgers that "help." In the end, that's the difference between Green Bay and Chicago ownership.
Rodgers is arguable the best QB in football, but it was proven he can't do it all by himself.
Just so everyone knows, the Bears record was 51-51 with Cutler playing. Very mediocre, very average and nothing to write home about. Their record was 7-19 without Cutler playing. Definitely something to run away from home about. In truth, Cutler did make the Bears a better team when he played. The numbers say so. But, it wasn't good enough, for sure. Yes, I do agree. It was time for a change.
Going forward, I hope Glennon does a great job and I hope the Bears win games. But I know that won't happen if things around him don't change. In my opinion, the biggest thing the organization needs to deal with and fix is not the lack of talent they have although it's important. The thing they need to answer and fix is why real good players don't want to come to Chicago.
If anyone thinks being solid in all positions isn't as important as a good QB let me say this. We need look no further than Green Bay to see what a great QB can do without enough help. They did go further than I thought they might and no doubt Rodgers was the major reason. But, when it came time to beat Atlanta they got smoked. All I heard during the broadcast was, "Aaron Rodgers needs help." That is true. You can bet GB will be making the necessary decisions to get Rodgers that "help." In the end, that's the difference between Green Bay and Chicago ownership.
Rodgers is arguable the best QB in football, but it was proven he can't do it all by himself.
Just so everyone knows, the Bears record was 51-51 with Cutler playing. Very mediocre, very average and nothing to write home about. Their record was 7-19 without Cutler playing. Definitely something to run away from home about. In truth, Cutler did make the Bears a better team when he played. The numbers say so. But, it wasn't good enough, for sure. Yes, I do agree. It was time for a change.
Going forward, I hope Glennon does a great job and I hope the Bears win games. But I know that won't happen if things around him don't change. In my opinion, the biggest thing the organization needs to deal with and fix is not the lack of talent they have although it's important. The thing they need to answer and fix is why real good players don't want to come to Chicago.
Siu, you are a Cub fan, so that tells me you are, in general, an optimistic fan. I agree the draft will be huge. I don't look for the Bears to take a QB in the first round and neither does anyone else. Lots of good DBs out there. But with so many holes, where do you start? I do, however, think the O-line is pretty good and we do have a RB who is showing promise. Regardless of what anyone says, we have no idea how the QB situation will work out. OK, Glennon wants pictures of everyone and wants cell phone numbers. Fine, but can he play?
I am worried about the reputation of the organization when we hear of guys not wanting to come here. I thought the Bears would do better in 2016 and I was wrong. But, there were a ton of injuries. How far away do you think they are?
I do have to chuckle, a little, at the Cutler haters. Not just the haters here, but the haters in general. They are the kind of people who could be driving down the road and all of a sudden the car won't go out of first gear. After several seconds of that, the car stops running altogether. They would get out of the car and their first thought would be to check the tires for flats. Hahaha!!
Just messing around!
Just messing around!
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And I regret the wasted keystrokes on even such a brief answer.
Seems as if the few remaining remnants of the Jay Cutler Fan Club have taken up residence on this board.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they're stupid. You have your opinion on Cutler and your reasons that you've stated. I have my opinion and reasons. It's people getting pissed off when people don't agree with them that is the issue in this country. This is a discussion board. Either post a comment furthering the discussion or have a conversation with yourself.
Also, I'm not a member of the Cutler fan club. I watch football and read statistics to understand that Cutler was not only not Tom Brady but also not Blake Bortles.
Dr.
He's 12-23 since the contract signing so essentially the cap took an ~$4.5million hit per win. You think that 51-51 looks good now? As I said from the beginning should have marked him with the franchise tag and started the rebuild.
He's 12-23 since the contract signing so essentially the cap took an ~$4.5million hit per win. You think that 51-51 looks good now? As I said from the beginning should have marked him with the franchise tag and started the rebuild.
There is one thing I will say about Mike Glennon. That dude isn't going to win any beauty contests.
Who cares about the money? That it went to Cutler instead of other players who wouldnt have contributed to a winning season? That contract did not inhibit the Bears from adding players or even targeting a QB of the future.
Correct me if I said it. But tell me exactly where I said 51-51 is good. I called it "very mediocre and very average." I pointed out his career record with the Bears because those are his numbers. I didn't cherry pick numbers to fit my argument.
And while I have you on the line, name me another QB who would have won with the teams Cutler played with. Name me another QB who is going to have success with 3 HCs and 6 OCs in eight years. I'll hang up and wait for your answer.
In his career how many times has he been in the playoffs? How many playoff games has he won? Enough said! You play to win not just participate.
Dr.
I never said he shouldn't have been with the team when he was signed, I said franchise tag him from the beginning and blow up the whole mess and start the rebuild then. Now the Bears are no better off then they were in 2014 and in fact, probably in worse shape. I've also said I am not and will never be a Bears fan, he was just simply a waste of time and money and his record since the signing proves the point. You will never see this as a valid point but one of you all pointed out opinions are valid even if you don't agree with them. This is simply my opinion. It's easy to say with hindsight that Dak may have worked out better but who knows. Good luck to your Bears but they are in a bad way for the foreseeable future.
He's also 69-72 overall so let's not cherry pick just the Chicago years. What I'm getting at is there was NEVER any justification to propose let alone commit to a contract the size he was awarded.
I never said he shouldn't have been with the team when he was signed, I said franchise tag him from the beginning and blow up the whole mess and start the rebuild then. Now the Bears are no better off then they were in 2014 and in fact, probably in worse shape. I've also said I am not and will never be a Bears fan, he was just simply a waste of time and money and his record since the signing proves the point. You will never see this as a valid point but one of you all pointed out opinions are valid even if you don't agree with them. This is simply my opinion. It's easy to say with hindsight that Dak may have worked out better but who knows. Good luck to your Bears but they are in a bad way for the foreseeable future.
He's also 69-72 overall so let's not cherry pick just the Chicago years. What I'm getting at is there was NEVER any justification to propose let alone commit to a contract the size he was awarded.
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How many playoff talented teams did he play for Corey? In 2011 the Bears were 7-3 with Cutler. On November 20th he broke his right thumb in a victory against San Diego which was the Bears' 5th in a row. The Bears finished by going 1-5 without Cutler to miss the playoffs. That sure as hell wasn't Cutler's fault.
If you wanted to blow it up after 2013, I appluad your foresight, but I'm not sure what the purpose of the franchise tag would have been either in that. A short-term franchise solution wouldn't have really changed anything financially for the Bears. The structure of the contract was not a bad deal. I put together an analysis a few weeks ago on another site, and the only open market QB it cost the Bears was Sam Bradford. It was a 3 year deal, basically. And nothing about his contract should have prevented them from drafting a QB replacement. That they waited three additional years without drafting a serious QB prospect is just another sign of the mismanagement.
A study I'm titling "The Opportunity Cost of the Jay Cutler contract vs the franchise tag"
"I'd also like to address the possibility of the franchise tag, since you brought it up. It was certainly an idea with some merit, but I'm not sure, ultimately how beneficial it would have been, even with the benefit of hindsight
A cap analysis
Year/ Franchise / Franchise x2 / Actual (Additional Cap Hit if Cut before June 1)
2014 / 16.2 / 16.2 / 18.5 (19.5)
2015 / 0 / 19.44 / 16.5 (12.5)
2016 / 0 / 0 / 17 (2)
Now, in 14 and 15 they ended up with about 1.5 and 3.5M in leftover cap space, respectively. Given the hit, they definitely were tied to him both of those years. This past year, while they were tied to him financially, they could have walked with minimal additional harm (basically that 2M they'll pay him over the next two years as well) and with over 8M in leftover cap at the end of the year, that would have had no impact.
Alright so of the other two options, this one definitely cost the McCaskeys either and additional 18M or 37M in cold hard cash. From a roster flexibility standpoint, it was no net effect in 2014. It either tied them up an extra 16.5M in 2015, or left them saving 3M, and in 2016, cost them 17M. So from an opportunity cost standpoint.
2014 - No opportunity cost
2015 - Opportunity cost (Option 1 only)
1. Mark Sanchez (Re-signed 2-year, $9M deal with PHI) - Okay with this missed "opportunity"
3. Josh McCown (Signed 3-year, $14M deal with CLE) - Ditto
4. Brian Hoyer (Signed 2-year, $10.5M deal with HOU) - So we had to wait a year...
5. Matt Moore (Re-signed 1-year, $2.6M deal with MIA) - could have fit cap wise.
6. Ryan Mallett (Re-signed 2-year, $7M deal with HOU) - could have fit cap wise.
7. Christian Ponder (Signed 1-year, $2.25M deal with OAK) - could have fit cap wise.
9. Shaun Hill (Signed 2-year, $6.5M deal with MIN) - could have fit cap wise.
11. Matt Hasselbeck (Re-signed 1-year, $3M deal with IND) - could have fit cap wise.
13. Colt McCoy (Re-signed 1-year, $1.5M deal with WAS) - could have fit cap wise.
14. Jimmy Clausen (Re-signed 1-year, $1.25M deal with CHI) - Well once you add this to our actual cap space, we could have had Hoyer!
16. Dan Orlovsky (Re-signed 1-year, $1.05M deal with DET) - could have fit cap wise.
17. Blaine Gabbert (Re-signed 2-year, $2M deal with SF) - could have fit cap wise.
18. Kellen Moore (Re-signed 2-year, $1.825M deal with DET) - could have fit cap wise.
19. T.J. Yates (Re-signed 1-year, $1.5M deal with ATL) - could have fit cap wise.
20. Tyrod Taylor (Signed 3-year, $3.35M deal with BUF) - could have fit cap wise.
Alright, so we basically missed out on Sanchez as an opportunity cost in Option 1. Option 2 where we franchise him again, we've eaten up all of our remaining cap space actually.
2016 (both options)
SamBradford (Re-signed 2-year, $36M deal with PHI) - Missed opportunity, debatable to me if it's worth worrying over
Brock Osweiler (Signed 4-year, $72M deal with HOU) - Well thank goodness we missed this "opportunity"
Robert Griffin III (Signed 2-year, $15M deal with CLE) - Could have fit still - glad we didn't
Chase Daniel (Signed 3-year, $21M deal with PHI) - could have fit cap wise.
Matt Moore (Re-signed 2-year, $3.55M deal with MIA) - could have fit cap wise.
Brian Hoyer (Signed 1-year, $2M deal with CHI) - Hey, nailed that opportunity!
Chad Henne (Re-signed 2-year, $8M deal with JAX) - Could have, didn't
Matt Schaub (Signed 1-year, $1.75M deal with ATL) - Could have, didn't
Brandon Weeden (Re-signed 2-year, $4M deal with HOU) - You get the idea....
Colt McCoy (Re-signed 3-year, $9M deal with WAS)
Drew Stanton (Re-signed 2-year, $6.5M deal with ARZ)
Dan Orlovsky (Re-signed 1-year, $1.065M deal with DET)
Matt Cassel (Signed 1-year, $2M deal with TEN)
Luke McCown (Re-signed 2-year, $3M deal with NO)
Scott Tolzien (Signed 2-year, $3.5M deal with IND)
Kellen Clemens (Re-signed 1-year, $1.065M deal with SD)
So we're left with very little in the way of missed opportunity costs with the benefit of hindsight. But even without the benefit of hindsight that is what certain people played out as risk scenarios at the time. We were in a healthy cap spot (our FA spending confirms this) and the opportunity in the market is limited. I think we agreed that his contract alone shouldn't have precluded them from acquiring cheap/young options. With Emery, I guess it wasn't realistic to expect him too, but even at the time, I was supportive of him doing so (even toyed with the idea of Carr as a first rounder in 14, personally), and many who supported the deal at the time felt the same way. Pace... Really had no excuse. Sure he was tied to him 1 year on the roster and 2 years financially, but he gets no out for ignoring the position. He knew full well 2017 was coming and the financial obligation of Cutler would be freed.
So after all that, the worst we can say looking back is it cost the McCaskeys a little cash and an opportunity to sign Marc Sanchez or Josh McCown in 2015 or Sam Bradford in 2016. I'd sign that deal all over again, and still go with my original hope of drafting his replacement!"
"I'd also like to address the possibility of the franchise tag, since you brought it up. It was certainly an idea with some merit, but I'm not sure, ultimately how beneficial it would have been, even with the benefit of hindsight
A cap analysis
Year/ Franchise / Franchise x2 / Actual (Additional Cap Hit if Cut before June 1)
2014 / 16.2 / 16.2 / 18.5 (19.5)
2015 / 0 / 19.44 / 16.5 (12.5)
2016 / 0 / 0 / 17 (2)
Now, in 14 and 15 they ended up with about 1.5 and 3.5M in leftover cap space, respectively. Given the hit, they definitely were tied to him both of those years. This past year, while they were tied to him financially, they could have walked with minimal additional harm (basically that 2M they'll pay him over the next two years as well) and with over 8M in leftover cap at the end of the year, that would have had no impact.
Alright so of the other two options, this one definitely cost the McCaskeys either and additional 18M or 37M in cold hard cash. From a roster flexibility standpoint, it was no net effect in 2014. It either tied them up an extra 16.5M in 2015, or left them saving 3M, and in 2016, cost them 17M. So from an opportunity cost standpoint.
2014 - No opportunity cost
2015 - Opportunity cost (Option 1 only)
1. Mark Sanchez (Re-signed 2-year, $9M deal with PHI) - Okay with this missed "opportunity"
3. Josh McCown (Signed 3-year, $14M deal with CLE) - Ditto
4. Brian Hoyer (Signed 2-year, $10.5M deal with HOU) - So we had to wait a year...
5. Matt Moore (Re-signed 1-year, $2.6M deal with MIA) - could have fit cap wise.
6. Ryan Mallett (Re-signed 2-year, $7M deal with HOU) - could have fit cap wise.
7. Christian Ponder (Signed 1-year, $2.25M deal with OAK) - could have fit cap wise.
9. Shaun Hill (Signed 2-year, $6.5M deal with MIN) - could have fit cap wise.
11. Matt Hasselbeck (Re-signed 1-year, $3M deal with IND) - could have fit cap wise.
13. Colt McCoy (Re-signed 1-year, $1.5M deal with WAS) - could have fit cap wise.
14. Jimmy Clausen (Re-signed 1-year, $1.25M deal with CHI) - Well once you add this to our actual cap space, we could have had Hoyer!
16. Dan Orlovsky (Re-signed 1-year, $1.05M deal with DET) - could have fit cap wise.
17. Blaine Gabbert (Re-signed 2-year, $2M deal with SF) - could have fit cap wise.
18. Kellen Moore (Re-signed 2-year, $1.825M deal with DET) - could have fit cap wise.
19. T.J. Yates (Re-signed 1-year, $1.5M deal with ATL) - could have fit cap wise.
20. Tyrod Taylor (Signed 3-year, $3.35M deal with BUF) - could have fit cap wise.
Alright, so we basically missed out on Sanchez as an opportunity cost in Option 1. Option 2 where we franchise him again, we've eaten up all of our remaining cap space actually.
2016 (both options)
SamBradford (Re-signed 2-year, $36M deal with PHI) - Missed opportunity, debatable to me if it's worth worrying over
Brock Osweiler (Signed 4-year, $72M deal with HOU) - Well thank goodness we missed this "opportunity"
Robert Griffin III (Signed 2-year, $15M deal with CLE) - Could have fit still - glad we didn't
Chase Daniel (Signed 3-year, $21M deal with PHI) - could have fit cap wise.
Matt Moore (Re-signed 2-year, $3.55M deal with MIA) - could have fit cap wise.
Brian Hoyer (Signed 1-year, $2M deal with CHI) - Hey, nailed that opportunity!
Chad Henne (Re-signed 2-year, $8M deal with JAX) - Could have, didn't
Matt Schaub (Signed 1-year, $1.75M deal with ATL) - Could have, didn't
Brandon Weeden (Re-signed 2-year, $4M deal with HOU) - You get the idea....
Colt McCoy (Re-signed 3-year, $9M deal with WAS)
Drew Stanton (Re-signed 2-year, $6.5M deal with ARZ)
Dan Orlovsky (Re-signed 1-year, $1.065M deal with DET)
Matt Cassel (Signed 1-year, $2M deal with TEN)
Luke McCown (Re-signed 2-year, $3M deal with NO)
Scott Tolzien (Signed 2-year, $3.5M deal with IND)
Kellen Clemens (Re-signed 1-year, $1.065M deal with SD)
So we're left with very little in the way of missed opportunity costs with the benefit of hindsight. But even without the benefit of hindsight that is what certain people played out as risk scenarios at the time. We were in a healthy cap spot (our FA spending confirms this) and the opportunity in the market is limited. I think we agreed that his contract alone shouldn't have precluded them from acquiring cheap/young options. With Emery, I guess it wasn't realistic to expect him too, but even at the time, I was supportive of him doing so (even toyed with the idea of Carr as a first rounder in 14, personally), and many who supported the deal at the time felt the same way. Pace... Really had no excuse. Sure he was tied to him 1 year on the roster and 2 years financially, but he gets no out for ignoring the position. He knew full well 2017 was coming and the financial obligation of Cutler would be freed.
So after all that, the worst we can say looking back is it cost the McCaskeys a little cash and an opportunity to sign Marc Sanchez or Josh McCown in 2015 or Sam Bradford in 2016. I'd sign that deal all over again, and still go with my original hope of drafting his replacement!"
WOW! What a post. Thank you so much for all the research. No one could remember all of this off the top of their head. Maybe you could, but I sure as hell couldn't.
It does drive home my point more solidly. But, it also shows what the options were at the time. Not much at all. I suppose that's Cutler's fault too. There were people here who asked the haters to give us some options at QB at the time and we never got any answers.
My main point is and has been the same since the start. Cutler deserves his share of the blame...but no more and certainly nowhere near the majority of it.
You would do better if you didn't try to put words in my mouth. I am not saying your point isn't valid on the surface. Please check Snetsrak61's answer, because it shoots down pretty much everything you wrote here.
I would also point out that I have read some of your debates in the past and have seen you taking differing opinions as invalid. Everyone here has done that at one time or another.
As for Dak Prescott...he wouldn't have won here either with the supporting cast that exists. But I didn't see anyone coming here saying the Bears should draft him. A bunch of people passed on Tom Brady and Joe Montana too.
I would be fine with taking best player available with every pick or trading down and picking up more picks or possibly keeping #3 and trading back into the end of rd 1 for a QB (if there is one they feel strongly about). Any of those scenarios I would be good with.
The one good thing about Glennon he's pretty good when he can step up in the pocket. That is the strength of the OL. He struggles when pressure comes up the middle because he is just not mobile and/or good at avoiding pressure. He would be well served to watched tapes of Manning/Brady/Breese's feet and their ability to slide up/back/side to side to avoid pressure.
How far away from what? That is the question. I don't think they are that far away from possibly being .500 or slightly better and competing for a WC. Competing for NFC Championship or SB? I cannot answer that question until we think we have a long term QB solution. If the secondary is closer to average than below average the D will be a solid NFL unit and they should have the ability to run the ball. Those two things can win you some games.
