ESCC/CCL potential merger?

[EdgyTim]

See original posting from last week....

Rumor Mill is telling me that...

As originally posted here first....the proposed merger between the ESCC and CCL is almost a done deal. Hearing that the CCL has voted and approved the merger and they are now awaiting a vote and approval from the ESCC which I hear is coming very soon.

Also IMPORTANT!

The merger of the ESCC and the CCL for football will be 4 six team divisions. Three divisional opponents, four crossover opponents and two non conference games for football. Parody formula and demotion will happen every two years.

The thinking behind not having four 6 team conferences (no IHSA auto bid) is that the thought is IHSA will eventually expand the state playoffs somehow and someway down the line. Also does the auto bid really matter anymore at this stage? If any of these team need an auto bid...well you get it.

Will be football only in 2019 and 2020

Still no word of divisional breakdowns just yet.

Also hearing from the CCL side that geography will play no factor in the divisional setup which is a different thought from what I heard originally. The formula I'm hearing is involving enrollment, football success over 5 years, actual football participants and then geography (which is the only difference from my original source).

 

[Wittymoniker1]

Wow! Just wow!

 

[pjjp]

Parody formula and demotion will happen every two years.

I believe this was in Dean's power point presentation.

 

[godfthr53]

i don't like this with only 4 teams. that means half a division would be changed every other year.

 

[pjjp]

Here's a first draft of the possible divisions. In this draft, "football success over the last 5 years" gives more weight to regular season football success. Enrollment was emphasized. I have no idea what current football enrollment is.....and does that mean overall program enrollment or just varsity enrollment?

3316 LA
2686 Marist
2290 BR
1254 Naz

2541 ND
2175 Benet
2039 MC
1898 Rita

1965 Fenwick
1538 Provi
1130 St. Larry
1048 Montini

1756 Marmion
1495 De La Salle
1087 MCC
1033 JCA

2399 Ignatius
2105 Pats
1988 Carmel
1390 Viator

1657 Marian C
725 DePaul
553 Joe's
436 Leo

Fairly confident in the Marian C/Depaul/Joe's/Leo grouping. Is ND too high? Fenwick too high (they are not good this year, but have had some good recent years)? Etc. etc.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

I have to look at all the numbers ie enrollment, football participation, lower level situations, but that lower group should be set i would think.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

Here's a first draft of the possible divisions. In this draft, "football success over the last 5 years" gives more weight to regular season football success. Enrollment was emphasized. I have no idea what current football enrollment is.....and does that mean overall program enrollment or just varsity enrollment?

3316 LA
2686 Marist
2290 BR
1254 Naz

2541 ND
2175 Benet
2039 MC
1898 Rita

1965 Fenwick
1538 Provi
1130 St. Larry
1048 Montini

1756 Marmion
1495 De La Salle
1087 MCC
1033 JCA

2399 Ignatius
2105 Pats
1988 Carmel
1390 Viator

1657 Marian C
725 DePaul
553 Joe's
436 Leo

Fairly confident in the Marian C/Depaul/Joe's/Leo grouping. Is ND too high? Fenwick too high (they are not good this year, but have had some good recent years)? Etc. etc.

Pretty solid groups of 4!

I would still like to see this Group of 4 (but I know it will never happen)
* Naz
* JCA
* Montini
* Benet

 

[stonedlizard]

Wow! How have I been missing all this?

This....this...could be incredibly fun.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Here's a first draft of the possible divisions. In this draft, "football success over the last 5 years" gives more weight to regular season football success. Enrollment was emphasized. I have no idea what current football enrollment is.....and does that mean overall program enrollment or just varsity enrollment?

3316 LA
2686 Marist
2290 BR
1254 Naz

2541 ND
2175 Benet
2039 MC
1898 Rita

1965 Fenwick
1538 Provi
1130 St. Larry
1048 Montini

1756 Marmion
1495 De La Salle
1087 MCC
1033 JCA

2399 Ignatius
2105 Pats
1988 Carmel
1390 Viator

1657 Marian C
725 DePaul
553 Joe's
436 Leo

Fairly confident in the Marian C/Depaul/Joe's/Leo grouping. Is ND too high? Fenwick too high (they are not good this year, but have had some good recent years)? Etc. etc.

If total and football enrollment are considered as key elements there is no way Nazareth goes in that top grouping. They are more likely with St Rita, Fenwick, Montini...... and is it purely out of generosity that the ESCC is bailing the CCL out with their issues of ever changing membership? The ESCC has been stable. Are the smaller or under performing ESCC football schools such as Marian, Marian, St Viator, St pats looking to move and hoping to go in a small school or poor performing division?

 

[pjjp]

If total and football enrollment are considered as key elements there is no way Nazareth goes in that top grouping. They are more likely with St Rita, Fenwick, Montini...... and is it purely out of generosity that the ESCC is bailing the CCL out with there issues of ever changing membership? The ESCC has been stable. Are the smaller or under performing ESCC football schools such as Marian, Marian, St Viator, St pats looking to move and hoping to go in a small school or poor performing division?

The ESCC has a wide disparity of enrollments. It's pure speculation, but schools like MCC or JCA may be thinking they are up against it trying to get to 5 wins against much larger enrollment schools. Maybe they are looking to improve their chances by playing schools more their size.

I was thinking the ESCC may be looking to cut down on the travel as well. But, it sounds like geography is not going to be of primary importance for the groupings. Plus, there are only 3 divisional games. Not sure how the 4 crossovers would be determined. And, that's a key question, since there would be more crossover than divisional games.

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

If total and football enrollment are considered as key elements there is no way Nazareth goes in that top grouping. They are more likely with St Rita, Fenwick, Montini...... and is it purely out of generosity that the ESCC is bailing the CCL out with their issues of ever changing membership? The ESCC has been stable. Are the smaller or under performing ESCC football schools such as Marian, Marian, St Viator, St pats looking to move and hoping to go in a small school or poor performing division?

Strife and tension even before the new super conference gets off the ground?

 

[Gene K.]

What is Nazareth's actual student enrollment?
How about the other schools?
The IHSA has different numbers posted from what the actual enrollment is! I am assuming success factor, etc.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

What is Nazareth's actual student enrollment?
How about the other schools?
The IHSA has different numbers posted from what the actual enrollment is! I am assuming success factor, etc.

760 but since all schools compared are private it's all relative with the 1.65 multiplier.

FYI- google ihsa and any school name and one of the first results will be that schools profile at IHSA with all sorts of info including actual enrollment before the multiplier.

And regarding success factor that's not a multiplication on enrollment of any sort it's a direct bump up in class by 1,2 or 3 levels.

 

[mc140]

The real reason for four team divisions is you can go 0-3 and still get in the playoffs. With a six team division someone probably goes 0-5 in the Blue.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Two questions:

1. Name? I have a hard time believing the CCL is going to be willing to end that name and conference history.... so the CCL and ESCC won't be a merger forming a new conference, it will simply be ESCC schools joining the CCL.

2. Why would anyone vote "yes" without first seeing/knowing the proposed initial division groupings... you're going to vote yes and hope you like what happens? I can't imagine that anyone from the ESCC is that desperate to take that kind of risk?

 

[godfthr53]

Two questions:

1. Name? I have a hard time believing the CCL is going to be willing to end that name and conference history.... so the CCL and ESCC won't be a merger forming a new conference, it will simply be ESCC schools joining the CCL.

2. Why would anyone vote "yes" without first seeing/knowing the proposed initial division groupings... you're going to vote yes and hope you like what happens? I can't imagine that anyone from the ESCC is that desperate to take that kind of risk?

The escc schools know the breakdown

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

The escc schools know the breakdown

Oh, do tell and do they also know how he crossover games will work?

 

[Jchill-1]

The real reason for four team divisions is you can go 0-3 and still get in the playoffs. With a six team division someone probably goes 0-5 in the Blue.

That would be very strange that a 0-3 make the playoffs but a case in point the other way would be JCA this year. They will get to four wins but not the five. But IMO, if this team would make the playoffs this year, they would go far, if they stay healthy. Their schedule is just brutal. But I can see some teams that get in being embarrassing with bad records getting in the playoffs. But there are exceptions. I think there should be schedule strength factor when deciding playoffs too. Scheduling cupcake nonconference games should be penalized. Not every school has that luxury to schedule because of reputation or ect. Especially if majority of teams you play in your conference is in a higher class come playoff time. Thank you for letting me post and have a nice day.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

Here's a first draft of the possible divisions. In this draft, "football success over the last 5 years" gives more weight to regular season football success. Enrollment was emphasized. I have no idea what current football enrollment is.....and does that mean overall program enrollment or just varsity enrollment?

I believe this was in Dean's power point presentation.

The nice part is if a team is in wrong spot, after 2 years they will be promoted/demoted so it will work itself out.

 

[USD24]

Two questions:

1. Name? I have a hard time believing the CCL is going to be willing to end that name and conference history.... so the CCL and ESCC won't be a merger forming a new conference, it will simply be ESCC schools joining the CCL.

2. Why would anyone vote "yes" without first seeing/knowing the proposed initial division groupings... you're going to vote yes and hope you like what happens? I can't imagine that anyone from the ESCC is that desperate to take that kind of risk?

They changed the name the last time these groups merged. Not sure why it is any different now.

 

[pjjp]

The nice part is if a team is in wrong spot, after 2 years they will be promoted/demoted so it will work itself out.

And there are only 3 divisional games. One wonders how the crossover games will be determined, since there are 4 of those.

 

[Cross Bones]

And there are only 3 divisional games. One wonders how the crossover games will be determined, since there are 4 of those.

That's what I'm saying. I guess I don't see the difference between just putting them in the conference instead of all the crossovers.

 

[RockSoup]

That's what I'm saying. I guess I don't see the difference between just putting them in the conference instead of all the crossovers.

I would say the small divisions and extra crossovers allow more year to year schedule revisions, and less wholesale division swaps from the two year tiering process. Smaller divisions with more crossover scheduling allow AD concerns to be addressed in a timely fashion.

In any organized system, there will be haves and have-nots. It’s nice to see the two largest private conferences be proactive in improving the overall health of all programs in their new organization.

I think the environment is extremely different now than when the CMC failed. Since the 2000s, trend lines for state/area/catholic populations have continued and quickened their downward trajectory leaving more programs vulnerable than the CMC days. Also, like mentioned before, the smaller divisions and crossover scheduling allows issues to be addressed yearly instead of the issues being allowed to fester until a breakup was inevitable.

A handful of ESCC and a smaller handful of Catholic league programs did not need to address this but I am glad they are all at the table discussing reasonable, proactive solutions.

 

[Cross Bones]

I would say the small divisions and extra crossovers allow more year to year schedule revisions, and less wholesale division swaps from the two year tiering process. Smaller divisions with more crossover scheduling allow AD concerns to be addressed in a timely fashion.

In any organized system, there will be haves and have-nots. It’s nice to see the two largest private conferences be proactive in improving the overall health of all programs in their new organization.

I think the environment is extremely different now than when the CMC failed. Since the 2000s, trend lines for state/area/catholic populations have continued and quickened their downward trajectory leaving more programs vulnerable than the CMC days. Also, like mentioned before, the smaller divisions and crossover scheduling allows issues to be addressed yearly instead of the issues being allowed to fester until a breakup was inevitable.

A handful of ESCC and a smaller handful of Catholic league programs did not need to address this but I am glad they are all at the table discussing reasonable, proactive solutions.

I would generally agree except in this case the divisions appear to be competitively based so if I'm in that bottom division it doesn't matter what crossover you give me I'm supposed to lose and probably lose bad. It's not like the West Suburban where you might luck out and get an easy crossover by chance. It seems to me this would result in more teams but the same problems.

And I'm for this merger, just want more opportunity for the struggling programs to build

 

[RockSoup]

I would generally agree except in this case the divisions appear to be competitively based so if I'm in that bottom division it doesn't matter what crossover you give me I'm supposed to lose and probably lose bad. It's not like the West Suburban where you might luck out and get an easy crossover by chance. It seems to me this would result in more teams but the same problems.

And I'm for this merger, just want more opportunity for the struggling programs to build

Right. So in all leagues that keep Win Loss records you’ll have a top tier and, for a snapshot in time, a bottom tier. Let’s call the divisions ABCD. D teams will all be up against it but year by year more crossovers can try to minimize it by ensuring that the lower teams in D play the lower teams in C, B and A in crossovers. Since hierarchies shift over a longer time frame, smaller divisions with more scheduling options allows for the most agility on a yearly basis as needed.

Remember, the most-challenged programs will have a difficult time in any conference so having the ability to confer about and adapt to your members concerns is all that can be reasonably expected by the proposed merger.

And I’m not privy to any discussions so I don’t know any inside info, and if theyre going as deep as me, I’m just postulating from my experience in different sport and non-sport organizations.

Edited: And in reality it’d be A-F divisions. No F team would need to meet an A team to satisfy the schedule. Just another thought on smaller divisions being best for the merger

 

[IgorStL]

Any word on the ESCC vote on this?

 

[pjjp]

Edgy....can you confirm the ESCC vote? Hear anything about the make up of the divisions?

 

[DeanOfSelection]

I am going to see what I can find out today. Who would u like to be in a division with JC? I would think crossovers are determined to corresponding finish kind of like NFL does it. So say JC finished 3rd they would play 3rd place teams other divisions moving forward.

 

[pjjp]

I am going to see what I can find out today. Who would u like to be in a division with JC? I would think crossovers are determined to corresponding finish kind of like NFL does it. So say JC finished 3rd they would play 3rd place teams other divisions moving forward.

The crossovers and how they are determined are the big question. I'm guessing they will use an approach similar to what you described.

I make no bones about the fact that I'd like to JC in the easiest division possible. They are not going to have a strong team next year. They only have 13 juniors on the varsity roster. If they can start to show some improvement in 2020, maybe they could be moved up to a stronger division in 2021 (after the first 2 years of the new CMC). That scenario would work well for their current situation. Besides, I expect them to finish 4-5 this year. After going 1-8 and 3-6 the last two years, their 5-year record should push them down to a lower division, along with their enrollment.

 

[Jchill-1]

T

The crossovers and how they are determined are the big question. I'm guessing they will use an approach similar to what you described.

I make no bones about the fact that I'd like to JC in the easiest division possible. They are not going to have a strong team next year. They only have 13 juniors on the varsity roster. If they can start to show some improvement in 2020, maybe they could be moved up to a stronger division in 2021 (after the first 2 years of the new CMC). That scenario would work well for their current situation. Besides, I expect them to finish 4-5 this year. After going 1-8 and 3-6 the last two years, their 5-year record should push them down to a lower division, along with their enrollment.

they should be with iggy, fenwick, Carmel and maybe maybe Marion of the heights. Lol

 

[DeanOfSelection]

4 divisions of 6 TBD after the season

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

4 divisions of 6 TBD after the season

It’s been 6 of 4 this whole time now that’s changing?

 

[DeanOfSelection]

cross referencing now

 

[Jchill-1]

With jca’s Luck it will be Naz, Marist, montini, Brother rice, providence. Lmao.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

Joes, Leo, DePaul, Marian, Viator. JC

 

[DeanOfSelection]

I nominate myself and pjjp on the competition committee to select the 6 divisions.