Horse collar and encroachment question 8A

Discussion in 'Edgy's Lost His Mind Free Football Board' started by WIU78, Dec 1, 2019 at 12:01 PM.

  1. WIU78

    WIU78 Well-Known Member
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    First of all 8A was a game for the ages. Warren has the blueprint to follow now and will be a force going forward. LWE learned from the experiences of Lockport to get where they are today.

    1) horse collar tackle penalty just a tick before a fumble that changed possession. How is this rule enforced fairly? The infraction directly related to the ball coming out.
    2) encroachment on a field goal try....why is this not a penalty that may be declined. Obviously it is a dead ball call but no one really stops playing.
     
  2. penlight

    penlight Well-Known Member
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    Because if it is a Dead Ball penalty, upon the infraction the play is immediately Dead.
    Technically the play you saw never actually happened.
     
  3. Chief321

    Chief321 Well-Known Member
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    1. If the defense commits a foul for a horse collar tackle before they gain possession they cannot keep the ball. Didn’t see the play but horse collars seem to be one of the more inaccurately cried for fouls and isn’t there anywhere near as much as people think. The player has to be grabbed inside the shoulder pad or nameplate area and be pulled back and down. If he fumbles and the defense recovers after this foul occurs it should the be offenses ball 15yds from where he lost possession
    2. Anytime the defense enters the neutral zone the ball is dead. No play occurs
     
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  4. stripes13

    stripes13 Well-Known Member
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    Horse collar TACKLE. That was NOT a horse collar TACKLE.
     
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  5. WIU78

    WIU78 Well-Known Member
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    So the tackle needs to be completed? The description on TV was of a horse collar....not sure if the official said tackle. Penalty of horse collar most definitely influenced the fumble. Just curious then..you can remove grab a players face mask, not tackle him, forcing a fumble, and gain possession of the ball?
     
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  6. Chief321

    Chief321 Well-Known Member
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    Grabbing the back of the jersey/shoulder pads is not a foul until you pull him to the ground. If it’s just a grab it’s nothing unlike a facemask which if you just grab it’s automatically a foul. So if you grab a facemask and they fumble you aren’t getting the ball If you grab the back of a shoulder pad area and don’t pull the player down it’s nothing and you can legally recover the ball
     
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  7. stripes13

    stripes13 Well-Known Member
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    I don’t care what the non-officials said on TV. It wasn’t a horse collar TACKLE.
     
  8. stripes13

    stripes13 Well-Known Member
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    As I told a head coach whose team played this weekend, “an ugly tackle isn’t a penalty.”
     
  9. Cclman

    Cclman Well-Known Member
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    Something needs to be done about the officiating. That was a critical call that negated an awesome return of the fumble into the red zone. If Warren scored we have a different ballgame.
    The LA MS game was really bad also. Giving MS 6 points due to a bad call. Come on.
    How about LWE MS two years ago. LWE blocked a punt after flagrantly holding the MS lineman out of the kick blockers path. A missed call that changed the mojo of the game. Also please, I don’t need to be told if I don’t like it to start reffing.
     
  10. stripes13

    stripes13 Well-Known Member
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    What are you talking about? They didn’t miss a horse collar tackle, because there wasn’t a horse collar tackle.
     
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  11. LWeastDad

    LWeastDad Well-Known Member
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    I’ve never heard such complaints about the refs in my life. Colman. Still complaining about two years ago? Really?
    There are bad calls in every game. The first bastion of a loser is to complain about the referee or umpires
     
  12. Chief321

    Chief321 Well-Known Member
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    What do you suggest to be done to improve the officiating? Not sure pointing out plays over the past 3 yrs that you have deemed to be poorly officiated helps to do that. It really just comes off as crying which isn’t helpful at all
     
  13. stripes13

    stripes13 Well-Known Member
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    Apparently they didn’t call a horse collar tackle that wasn’t a horse collar tackle.

    Go figure.
     
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  14. stripes13

    stripes13 Well-Known Member
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    You have a lot of patience expecting a good faith discussion with someone who doesn’t know what a tackle is.
     
  15. Chief321

    Chief321 Well-Known Member
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    Watch an NFL game or major college game, there are missed calls and calls that shouldn’t be made every game, and those guys are the best of the best. In some instances that is their full time occupation. And those guys get help from replay and the benefit if slowing it down frame by frame with 20 camera angles
    Now take a hs game where the people officiating are teachers, mechanics, cops, etc 40+ hours a week. Then sit in traffic to get to a game that they only get 9 games of reps/year. Missed calls are going to happen, it’s part of playing a game. Get over it. They don’t want to make mistakes, but it happens. Add in the fact that people who don’t know the rules or have biased opinions(such as yourself) watch the game live with no benefit of an angle or a replay, or watch on crappy Hudl with a view 80yds away and perceived mistakes are even more possible. The state of officiating isn’t great but I am very eager to hear how you propose we make it better
     
  16. Cclman

    Cclman Well-Known Member
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    You’ve been reasonable on this forum lwdad. As a point of clarification, I had no vested interest in that LWE MS game and am not pointing it out as a point against LWE so this is not about being a “ loser”. As a matter of fact I’m an LA fan .
    It was however a critical non call that I and others am certain still remember. My point is these types of instances are occurring more and more often, especially in critical games. I believe I pointed out 3 instances above.
    Maybe the game has gotten to fast for some of the refs. What to do? Heck I don’t know. I would however create a committee or group if I were the IHSA to find some solution. Bad calls in every game as you stated cannot be tolerated without a means to fix the problem.
     
  17. Cclman

    Cclman Well-Known Member
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    I think you’re missing the point. Of course the refs don’t want to make a mistake and I am not attacking the refs. But obviously, when a game is impacted, something needs to be done. I’m sorry you felt this was a personal affront, it was not meant to be.
     
  18. Cclman

    Cclman Well-Known Member
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    Really stripes?
     
  19. stripes13

    stripes13 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, really.

    You haven’t given anything to suggest why that fumble return was called bad other than the horse collar tackle. Except, it wasn’t a horse collar tackle. So what are you complaining about?
     
  20. LWeastDad

    LWeastDad Well-Known Member
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    I don't think the game has gotten too fast, I think the refs are getting too old. With few new ones coming on board the older refs will struggle to keep up. Heck, I've seen a few on them this year older and in worse shape than me and I wouldnt dream of trying to referree a Pee Wee game.

    But it seems to be a widespread problem. Not a good look for Saban either...
    https://bleacherreport.com/articles...om&utm_campaign=editorial&utm_medium=referral
     
  21. Chief321

    Chief321 Well-Known Member
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    My point is that everyone seems to have an opinion on calls they’ve perceived have been missed and sure they are missed from time to time. But at the same time people who don’t know rules, officiating philosophies, or flat out don’t have the same look as an official have become more and more vocal giving the perception that officiating is more incompetent than it has ever been. Bad calls have been there since the inception of the game, and are still there at the highest level with replay. But stupid, or just overly passionate people have become louder and now everyone has a forum to preach their ignorance. Missed calls and judgement calls are always going to happen. Missed rule application is unacceptable and I will agree there is still too much of that going on.
    I think we’d all love to get better at the craft but I’ve yet to hear a a good suggestion how that can happen. Just a lot of “officiating has to get better”.
     
  22. ref2

    ref2 Well-Known Member
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    As others have stated , it was not a horse collar tackle because a tackle never occurred. I think the problem with that play was we were never given an answer to what the actual penalty was. At least on the game I was watching.
     
  23. Solid Snake Pliskin

    Solid Snake Pliskin Well-Known Member
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    Too much crying about the refs this year. They are looking for more refs so I am sure the whiners are signing up.
     
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