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Here is a heads up on the next legal challenge for the IHSA

My guess is this will be the next legal challenge for the IHSA.

This was passed in the Wisconsin house but still has to pass the Senate.

Wisconsin General Assembly passes law to make WIAA follow public records/meetings law


From the article: "Transparency on all forms of government is a good thing," Nygren said.

Since when is private membership association of public and private schools, that receives no state funding, considered a form of government?

Unbelievable.
 
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From the article: "Transparency on all forms of government is a good thing," Nygren said.

Since when is private membership association of public and private schools, that receives no state funding, considered a form of government?

Unbelievable.

I agree with you but isn't there argument to be made that the overwhelming bulk of dues being paid to the IHSA are coming from tax dollars? Making the IHSA meeting public gives local tax payers an opportunity to see if their local school administrations are doing the right thing with their money.

This in reality is an attempt at more government over site weather it is needed on not.
 
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I agree with you but isn't there argument to be made that the overwhelming bulk of dues being paid to the IHSA are coming from tax dollars? Making the IHSA meeting public gives local tax payers an opportunity to see if their local school administrations are doing the right thing with their money.


The IHSA does not charge dues. The vast majority of its revenue comes from its playoff tournaments (general public admissions). Here is a link to their most recent IRS return: http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/366/366001358/366001358_201406_990.pdf You can see on page 9 of their return how their revenue is broken down.

The IHSA is a basically a VENDOR to Illinois high schools. I think it would be nice if the IHSA were to make their meetings open to the public voluntarily, not because state government required it as an extension of government.
 
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You obviously are more knowledgable on this subject I was just looking at the by laws where they can charge dues.
 
You obviously are more knowledgable on this subject I was just looking at the by laws where they can charge dues.

I didn't know they didn't charge dues until your earlier post prompted me to go looking for their IRS 990. Their by laws say they can charge dues, but their IRS returns reflect that, in actuality, they don't.
 
Doesn't anyone find it a bit obscene that the directors total compensation was ~$380K in 2013? It's a not for profit organization that had a gross revenue stream of ~$11MM. That's better than these Wall Street fund managers earn as a percentage of Holdings at a staggering 3.5%.

The IHSA does not charge dues. The vast majority of its revenue comes from its playoff tournaments (general public admissions). Here is a link to their most recent IRS return: http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/366/366001358/366001358_201406_990.pdf You can see on page 9 of their return how their revenue is broken down.

The IHSA is a basically a VENDOR to Illinois high schools. I think it would be nice if the IHSA were to make their meetings open to the public voluntarily, not because state government required it as an extension of government.
 
Doesn't anyone find it a bit obscene that the directors total compensation was ~$380K in 2013? It's a not for profit organization that had a gross revenue stream of ~$11MM. That's better than these Wall Street fund managers earn as a percentage of Holdings at a staggering 3.5%.

Welcome to the party.
I suppose there is some justification out there about this type of pay. But the most offensive aspect to the IHSA was their arrogance when dealing with the public.
However, under Matt Troha there has been some improvement.

Now if we could get proper seeding in those playoffs . . .
 
LHST,

I'm not concerned about his pay, I'm concerned about the obsenity of his value based on the Non Profit turn over. Had he been the Superinendent at East St Louis and been compensated equivalently on budget turn over he would have been paid $2,486,000, at IPSD 204 $9,209,000, or as CEO of General Motors $5,456,500,000.

Do you now get the picture of how grossly overcompensated he really is!

I find it interesting that someone will always be concerned about a persons pay.
 
LHST,

I'm not concerned about his pay, I'm concerned about the obsenity of his value based on the Non Profit turn over. Had he been the Superinendent at East St Louis and been compensated equivalently on budget turn over he would have been paid $2,486,000, at IPSD 204 $9,209,000, or as CEO of General Motors $5,456,500,000.

Do you now get the picture of how grossly overcompensated he really is!


Jwar,
I got the picture you painted from the start however I could care less what the next man make. If he is able to make it, I say make it. I don't agree with over half of the spending of tax payer dollars but it is what it is. I can go up and down the various levels of government and point out numbers that are questionable. My point is why would it be a concern. I believe if you can convince people to pay you what ever dollar amount you come up with, how can someone else have an opinion or problem with it.
 
Doesn't anyone find it a bit obscene that the directors total compensation was ~$380K in 2013? It's a not for profit organization that had a gross revenue stream of ~$11MM.

Revenue isn't what it's about. Effectiveness and impact should be what it's about.

What's the alternative, jwar? How much is enough, in your opinion?

And, while I am on my soapbox, I am sick and tired of seeing posts going around Facebook chirping that non-profit CEO salaries should be no more than 10% of the organization's revenue. Again, think IMPACT here. If a non-profit CEO makes $5 million a year and his/her organization employs researchers who discover the vaccine for the Zika virus, I say that is money well earned.

Furthermore, we seem to have no problem with pitchers with ERAs above 4 and everyday players who hit .250 earning millions. We have no problem with developers of mindless video games earning mega bucks or the Khardashian brand generating tens of millions of dollars a year.. Somehow, though, folks are repulsed by non-profit executives earning decent money because they think they should be volunteering or working for peanuts. Talk about effed up.
 
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Ramblin,

I have NO problem with him earning a decent buck, say between $150-200K total comp, but deferred compensation packages and nearly $400K in bloody Normal/Bloomington is obscene and IHSA is now "Effective"? I thought you were always talking about how ineffective they are about working out the public/private issue?

Revenue isn't what it's about. Effectiveness and impact should be what it's about.

What's the alternative, jwar? How much is enough, in your opinion?

And, while I am on my soapbox, I am sick and tired of seeing posts going around Facebook chirping that non-profit CEO salaries should be no more than 10% of the organization's revenue. Again, think IMPACT here. If a non-profit CEO makes $5 million a year and his/her organization employs researchers who discover the vaccine for the Zika virus, I say that is money well earned.

Furthermore, we seem to have no problem with pitchers with ERAs above 4 and everyday players who hit .250 earning millions. We have no problem with developers of mindless video games earning mega bucks or the Khardashian brand generating tens of millions of dollars a year.. Somehow, though, folks are repulsed by non-profit executives earning decent money because they think they should be volunteering or working for peanuts. Talk about effed up.
 
Ramblin,

I have NO problem with him earning a decent buck, say between $150-200K total comp, but deferred compensation packages and nearly $400K in bloody Normal/Bloomington is obscene and IHSA is now "Effective"? I thought you were always talking about how ineffective they are about working out the public/private issue?

I take issue with you feeling you know what is the appropriate salary for this position. What leads you to this conclusion? Have you consulted a salary survey of similar non-profits? What non-profit board experience do you have in hiring CEOs in general, much less in the specialized area of high school athletics management? The fact that this position is headquartered in the Bloomington market is not nearly as germane as the limited market of people who have the qualifications and people skills necessary to perform effectively in this position.

The Big Ten conference commissioner makes more than $3 million a year. Has it occurred to you that perhaps the IHSA is getting a bargain?

I am telling you that comparing salary vs revenue generated is not a reasonable benchmark. What is reasonable is impact and effectiveness. Is the person performing effectively in the role? Does leading an organization that impacts roughly 350,000 high school student athletes in this state warrant such compensation regardless of where it is located within the state? There are a fair number of school district supers in this state who earn about as much as the IHSA exec dir.

The public/private issue is more of a statewide phenomenon born out of envy, prejudice, etc, that gets manifested at the board level of the IHSA. Indeed, I feel that the issue is polarizing and unsolvable without serious compromise on both sides. This is not the fault of the Exec Dir. The Exec Dir is more like a referee in the public private issue than anything else.
 
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Can someone explain to me why if a Catholic school hosts a playoff game (or any state playoff) they are specifically prohibited from leading a prayer because of "separation of church and state" meanwhile the IHSA insists that they are not a public entity subject to any of the state sunshine laws?
 
Can someone explain to me why if a Catholic school hosts a playoff game (or any state playoff) they are specifically prohibited from leading a prayer because of "separation of church and state" meanwhile the IHSA insists that they are not a public entity subject to any of the state sunshine laws?
I was told that the schools are acting as an agent for the IHSA. The IHSA is a not affiliated with any one religion.
 
I was told that the schools are acting as an agent for the IHSA. The IHSA is a not affiliated with any one religion.

So the IHSA uses Catholic schools to host, coordinate and run events - and doesn't take a neutral stance on their custom of a pre-game prayer - but expressly prohibits it. That doesn't sound neutral to me.
 
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Can someone explain to me why if a Catholic school hosts a playoff game (or any state playoff) they are specifically prohibited from leading a prayer because of "separation of church and state" meanwhile the IHSA insists that they are not a public entity subject to any of the state sunshine laws?

I'm all for prayer before games. But, not everyone else is.

If a faith based school host of a playoff contest is, indeed, acting as an agent for the IHSA to host that playoff contest, and if the IHSA prohibits the school host from publicly inviting or leading prayer as a specific activity at that contest through the agency agreement, then the school host should comply with the terms of that agency agreement. That faith based school is not required to host and be an agent. If it doesn't like the terms of the agency agreement, then don't agree to host the contest in the first place.

This isn't a freedom of religion or speech issue. It's a contractual issue surrounding playoff contests under the control of the IHSA. The IHSA should be able to control exactly what is communicated, and not communicated, by their agents at those playoff contests.

Regarding separation of church and state and freedom of religion, I would be curious to learn if, in fact, the IHSA has used the separation of church and state argument as rationale for not praying at their playoff contests. "Separation of church and state" is not a law. It is a concept that attempts to explain the intent of the First Amendment which states that there should be no law made that establishes a religion sponsored by the state and that the state shall not require citizens to join or practice religion.

So, ignazio, if the IHSA is using that concept to rationalize its prayer prohibition at playoff contests, then I would agree with you that they can't have it both ways. Either they are, or are not, a state government entity. I do think, though, that they can still prohibit a host school-lead prayer at their playoff contests if it is written into the terms of an agency agreement that the host school enters into voluntarily.

That said, however, prohibiting prayer as a term of the agency agreement, and enforcement of that prohibition by the IHSA, are two different things. If a host school were to knowingly or unknowingly (wink, wink) violate that term and lead teams and fans in a prayer at a playoff contest, what is the IHSA going to do about it? Short of not selecting that school to host future playoff contests, I think their options are limited.
 
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A lot of teams pray before their contest. They just don't involve the fans. Most team huddle on the field before the start of the game which is usually a prayer of some sort.
 
A lot of teams pray before their contest. They just don't involve the fans. Most team huddle on the field before the start of the game which is usually a prayer of some sort.

True, but I think the IHSA is drawing a distinction between that activity and host school lead prayer at playoff contests.
 
LHST,

I'm not concerned about his pay, I'm concerned about the obsenity of his value based on the Non Profit turn over. Had he been the Superinendent at East St Louis and been compensated equivalently on budget turn over he would have been paid $2,486,000, at IPSD 204 $9,209,000, or as CEO of General Motors $5,456,500,000.

Do you now get the picture of how grossly overcompensated he really is!


Value is not based on the ratio of salary v. company revenue. How much should he be paid?
 
True, but I think the IHSA is drawing a distinction between that activity and host school lead prayer at playoff contests.

Rightfully so. School lead prayer is typically through the PA system which can offend someone. In a court driven society I can understand their stance.
 
Naperville Central Head coach was reprimanded for doing such and told by the district he must stop leading the prayer because of a letter sent by an out of state atheist group threatening court action a couple years back.

A lot of teams pray before their contest. They just don't involve the fans. Most team huddle on the field before the start of the game which is usually a prayer of some sort.
 
HRCJR,

Its water under the bridge and I'll be interested to see the new Executive Directors salary when the 2016 and 2017 Form 990's are released. The Executive directors at several other states equivalents are either volunteers that are reimbursed for their expenses only or where paid i.e. State of Texas for example compensated at less than $100k. As i've said in the past I wouldn't even argue about his base pay at the $180K range but the deferred income no! Even the ability to defer income into retirement is a luxury very few people are allowed. The tax impact on effective earnings alone can be significant in the ability to stockpile cash for retirement not allowed in standard retirement plans, 401Ks, 403Bs, Keough's, IRAs, etc...

Value is not based on the ratio of salary v. company revenue. How much should he be paid?
 
HRCJR,

Its water under the bridge and I'll be interested to see the new Executive Directors salary when the 2016 and 2017 Form 990's are released. The Executive directors at several other states equivalents are either volunteers that are reimbursed for their expenses only or where paid i.e. State of Texas for example compensated at less than $100k. As i've said in the past I wouldn't even argue about his base pay at the $180K range but the deferred income no! Even the ability to defer income into retirement is a luxury very few people are allowed. The tax impact on effective earnings alone can be significant in the ability to stockpile cash for retirement not allowed in standard retirement plans, 401Ks, 403Bs, Keough's, IRAs, etc...


Texas UIL is run by the state of Texas - you are comparing apples and oranges. If the schools of Illinois are unhappy with the compensation of the employees of the IHSA they could change it.
 
HRCJR,

As tax payers you should have some input and concern. As I no longer live in IL one could say I'm a disinterested 3rd party.

Texas UIL is run by the state of Texas - you are comparing apples and oranges. If the schools of Illinois are unhappy with the compensation of the employees of the IHSA they could change it.
 
Doesn't anyone find it a bit obscene that the directors total compensation was ~$380K in 2013? It's a not for profit organization that had a gross revenue stream of ~$11MM. That's better than these Wall Street fund managers earn as a percentage of Holdings at a staggering 3.5%.

jwar:

I do.

The IHSA may pose as a non-profit, but its practices reveal it is far from an organization devoted to assuaging suffering, healing broken lives and bringing relief to those toiling in the margins of society. In fact, I often find the IHSA causes suffering, lives to be broken, and halting the spread of relief.

I am not knowledgeable on the interworkings of charitable organizations, but it has always been my understanding from limited experience the head of a non-profit has their annual pay tied to the amount of money raised through fundraising efforts.

Unless the IHSA has suddenly shifted its policies to include fundraising as a method to increase revenue, I think over $300,000 is, well, a bit of an overpayment.

But hey, without overpaid bureaucrats telling us what to think or what is good for us, we would not know what to think or what is good for us.

I, however, have no fear: The IHSA always seems to get things right, after trying everything else.
 
My guess is this will be the next legal challenge for the IHSA.

This was passed in the Wisconsin house but still has to pass the Senate.

Wisconsin General Assembly passes law to make WIAA follow public records/meetings law


From the article: "Transparency on all forms of government is a good thing," Nygren said.

Since when is private membership association of public and private schools, that receives no state funding, considered a form of government?

Unbelievable.

Even forgetting that the majority of the members are publicly funded, there is tons of case law of the government requiring ful public disclosure between private entities. For example , I'm a private practice physician and yet all my interactions with private corporations are incredibly scrutinized and required by law to be disclosed to the public.

Sorry , but it's not that unusual , and from dome of the bizarre things I've seen from state athletics organizations it's a GOOD thing.
 
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I am not knowledgeable on the interworkings of charitable organizations, but it has always been my understanding from limited experience the head of a non-profit has their annual pay tied to the amount of money raised through fundraising efforts.

I've spent most of my professional career dealing with those innerworkings.

Sure, a non-profit can't live beyond its means when it comes to CEO salary. It can't bleed red ink for long so that the CEO can earn a princely sum. I get that, but that's not the case with the IHSA.

Unless the IHSA has suddenly shifted its policies to include fundraising as a method to increase revenue, I think over $300,000 is, well, a bit of an overpayment.

Why? Are you drawing a distinction between for-profit and non-profit? Both types of entities need employees. Both are subject to limited pools of qualified candidates to fill their available positions. Both are subject to job market forces.

Society wants its non-profits to run well. To do that, those non-profits need to hire and retain employees who produce those desired results. They need to COMPETE in the job market with for-profit employers for the same talent. But, society has acquired a mindset that non-profit employees should be paid less than for-profit employees. That's a double standard if I ever saw one.

Being as close to the non-profit world as I am, I am very aware of the standard that many people hold non-profits to when it comes to what they pay their executives and to solely measuring a non-profit's efficacy by how little they spend on administrative overhead. I firmly believe that this standard, although rooted in a sense of altruism, serves to hinder non-profit organizations more than it helps them.

There's an old adage that says, "You get what you pay for." What kind of CEO talent will be attracted to work for the IHSA if s/he is paid far less than what s/he might make leading an $11 million business in the for-profit sector? What kind of bottom line results is society willing to accept from non-profits, as a whole, if it expects the leaders of those organizations to work for substantially less pay than what they could make in the corporate sector?

Society has little quarrel with for-profit enterprises promoting their products and services and applying tried-and-true, market based decision making to the running of those enterprises. Corporate America invests heavily to produce greater long term results. Companies incur debt. They sometimes plan to spend far more than they bring in because they believe that they WILL be profitable eventually if they do so. They take RISKS. Why, then, does society get their collective knickers in a twist when charitable organizations apply those same principles to their organizations?

What should matter more than anything else, including revenue generated, is bottom line impact -- measurable and positive results that are sustained. Is the organization doing a good job of what it is supposed to be doing? Is it progressing or regressing?

You know that I am the last person who could be labeled a knee-jerk apologist for the IHSA. Both you and I are quick to point out IHSA shortfalls. There's a lot not to like with the IHSA, especially

That said, look at what the IHSA does day in and day out. Under the auspices and regulation of the IHSA, how many high school athletic activities happen every single day during the school year? The answer is in the THOUSANDS. Of those thousands, how many come off without a hitch? The VAST majority. Upwards of 99.9%, I would have to say. On the most macro of levels, I think that the IHSA does a pretty good job.

The Executive Director of the IHSA is there to implement the policies established by the Board of Directors. He or she is not there to establish those policies. The kind of change that you and I want relative to the IHSA starts at the board level, not the CEO level. We may not like the volunteer and administrative leaders, and we may not like certain IHSA policies, but I believe that disdain/dislike should be separate from what IHSA administrative leaders deserve to be paid to carry out the mission of the organization, as established by the board, in an efficient and effective way.
 
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The IHSA does not charge dues. The vast majority of its revenue comes from its playoff tournaments (general public admissions). Here is a link to their most recent IRS return: http://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/366/366001358/366001358_201406_990.pdf You can see on page 9 of their return how their revenue is broken down.

The IHSA is a basically a VENDOR to Illinois high schools. I think it would be nice if the IHSA were to make their meetings open to the public voluntarily, not because state government required it as an extension of government.[/QUOT
 
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