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D3 Football

colin2229

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Jul 23, 2005
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Anyone have good rational why the CCIW schools aren’t playing this spring? I’ve heard a lot of “we’re focused on the health of the kids and the 2021 fall season.”

What does that even mean? All D1’s played and it went well. All local NAIA’s are currently playing and so are all IHSA members.

Aurora University is playing 5 games this spring and they don’t count towards eligibility.

Seems like the kids are missing out and not getting to play 5 games. what am I missing?
 
Not missing anything. It's illogical and goes against a lot of the studies and science that is available. There are many entities around the world that are making decisions like it is April 2020 still.
 
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Not missing anything. It's illogical and goes against a lot of the studies and science that is available. There are many entities around the world that are making decisions like it is April 2020 still.
Huh?
 
The CCIW is playing.
The games being in late March
Not all schools are participating.
North Central and Wheaton have opted out.
Some are playing 3 games, others 4 or 5 depending on the school.
 
Why NC and Wheaton not playing?
Would think all your players would be extremely disappointed.
 
The CCIW is playing.
The games being in late March
Not all schools are participating.
North Central and Wheaton have opted out.
Some are playing 3 games, others 4 or 5 depending on the school.

It sounds like Wheaton and NCC have both had a decent amount of players withdraw from the 2nd semester so they can finish up their degrees next year and get their last year of football in the fall without the expense. I'm guessing that is why these schools opted out since both have legitimate National title hopes in the fall and are looking to come back healthy.
 
Anyone have good rational why the CCIW schools aren’t playing this spring? I’ve heard a lot of “we’re focused on the health of the kids and the 2021 fall season.”

What does that even mean? All D1’s played and it went well. All local NAIA’s are currently playing and so are all IHSA members.

Aurora University is playing 5 games this spring and they don’t count towards eligibility.

Seems like the kids are missing out and not getting to play 5 games. what am I missing?

You still gotta pay though.
 
For D3 Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (nine U of WI system universities) in FB, nothing on the spring month calendars at all.
 
He asked what was he missing- I said he's not missing anything. He's absolutely right regarding this thoughts. They are missing out, should play more games, should have played in the fall etc.
Sorry! I misread your quote. Totally my fault. I completely agree with you. Whoa! I gotta lay off the edibles.
 
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It sounds like Wheaton and NCC have both had a decent amount of players withdraw from the 2nd semester so they can finish up their degrees next year and get their last year of football in the fall without the expense. I'm guessing that is why these schools opted out since both have legitimate National title hopes in the fall and are looking to come back healthy.

This makes sense. Thanks for sharing.
 
I know a player at St. Norbert, he was telling me these D3 schools don’t have the trainers that the larger schools have...they have set groups that go from one sport to the other...if they are all playing at one time they will be spread too thin. So they are just calling it a wash and focusing on Fall.
 
I know a player at St. Norbert, he was telling me these D3 schools don’t have the trainers that the larger schools have...they have set groups that go from one sport to the other...if they are all playing at one time they will be spread too thin. So they are just calling it a wash and focusing on Fall.

Its no different then HS it would only really be an issue on game day if there are games spread all over the place which given the circumstance I'm sure the home team could provide a trainer for the away team. I think the issue for SNC is most of the schools in the Midwest Conference could care less about sports in general and don't want to make the effort to play.
 
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Anyone have good rational why the CCIW schools aren’t playing this spring? I’ve heard a lot of “we’re focused on the health of the kids and the 2021 fall season.”

What does that even mean? All D1’s played and it went well. All local NAIA’s are currently playing and so are all IHSA members.

D1 schools played not because it was safe, but because of the money involved. Period. Take the revenue out of the equation, and it is doubtful they would have played.

How many games were canceled, like 150 or close to? Plus several bowl games? The Rose Bowl was moved from Pasadena to Texas because Southern California was a freaking hot zone!

And you are saying that it went well?

Saban is pushing 70. Can you imagine if he and/or Ferentz had died after catching COVID during the season? Was it all worth it? Really?

At least the NFL players get paid and have their own union. D1 football being played was a total money move on the part of the NCAA.

https://www.si.com/college/2020/12/29/global-pandemic-exposed-ncaa-inc
 
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D1 schools played not because it was safe, but because of the money involved. Period. Take the revenue out of the equation, and it is doubtful they would have played.

How many games were canceled, like 150 or close to? Plus several bowl games? The Rose Bowl was moved from Pasadena to Texas because Southern California was a freaking hot zone!

And you are saying that it went well?

Saban is pushing 70. Can you imagine if he and/or Ferentz had died after catching COVID during the season? Was it all worth it? Really?

At least the NFL players get paid and have their own union. D1 football being played was a total money move on the part of the NCAA.

https://www.si.com/college/2020/12/29/global-pandemic-exposed-ncaa-inc

D3 schools need money/ enrollment and football is a huge driver of that when you have 2000 students and 125 football players you can do the math and see how the number stack up. If it wasn't worth it the Big Ten and Pac 12 players wouldn't have said anything they would have just waited until 2021 but to them the risks out weighed not playing not mention they had the option to not play and it wouldn't have cost them anything. As for Saban he got COVID and still managed to finish the year.
 
Its no different then HS it would only really be an issue on game day if there are games spread all over the place which given the circumstance I'm sure the home team could provide a trainer for the away team. I think the issue for SNC is most of the schools in the Midwest Conference could care less about sports in general and don't want to make the effort to play.
I agree that the Midwest Conference is a middle of the pack D3 conference from an overall competitiveness standpoint, but I think it is unfair to say they couldn't care less about sports and don't want to make the effort to play. How do you explain the decision not to play spring football from a generally stronger conference like the WIAC? Do they also not care about sports? Do they not want to make the effort to play? BTW, St. Norbert is moving from the Midwest to the Northern Collegiate Athletic Conference (and the NCAC is playing)
 
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I agree that the Midwest Conference is a middle of the pack D3 conference from an overall competitiveness standpoint, but I think it is unfair to say they could care less about sports and don't want to make the effort to play. How do you explain the decision not to play spring football from a generally stronger conference like the WIAC? Do they also not care about sports? Do they not want to make the effort to play? BTW, St. Norbert is moving from the Midwest to the Northern Collegiate Athletic Conference (and the NCAC is playing)

I have no clue what the WIAC does but I have experience in the MWC and most schools don't care about their athletic programs, the coaches aren't even allowed to leave the campus to go recruit. SNC has a very strong athletic program but they are square peg in a round hole compared to how the other MWC schools operate its probably why they are leaving the conference.
 
I have no clue what the WIAC does but I have experience in the MWC and most schools don't care about their athletic programs, the coaches aren't even allowed to leave the campus to go recruit. SNC is very strong athletic program but they are square peg in a round hole compared to the other MWC schools operate its probably why they are leaving the conference.


The WIAC is the conference with perennial D3 title contender UW Whitewater. They aren't playing football this spring. Do they also not care?

St. Norbert explained that their primary reason for leaving the Midwest Conference was because they wanted closer conference opponents, resulting in less time on the road and more time on campus for their student athletes. I don't think it is fair to say that most Midwest Conference schools don't care about their athletic programs. Simply because they aren't as competitive as the CCIW or the OAC doesn't mean that they don't care.
 
The WIAC is the conference with perennial D3 title contender UW Whitewater. They aren't playing football this spring. Do they also not care?

St. Norbert explained that their primary reason for leaving the Midwest Conference was because they wanted closer conference opponents, resulting in less time on the road and more time on campus for their student athletes. I don't think it is fair to say that most Midwest Conference schools don't care about their athletic programs. Simply because they aren't as competitive as the CCIW or the OAC doesn't mean that they don't care.

The WIAC is not a typical D3 conference since they are state funded not playing football will have zero impact on the schools finances even if they have a drop off in football player enrollment, the same can not be said by everyone else in D3. Like I said before outside of Schools like SNC and Ripon most MWC really could careless about their athletic programs they are line item in the school budget and nothing more. You can tell me I'm wrong until you're blue in the face but its not going to change my opinion based on what I have seen and the fact that any school with athletic aspirations has left the conference over the last 20 years.
 
The WIAC is not a typical D3 conference since they are state funded not playing football will have zero impact on the schools finances even if they have a drop off in football player enrollment, the same can not be said by everyone else in D3. Like I said before outside of Schools like SNC and Ripon most MWC really could careless about their athletic programs they are line item in the school budget and nothing more. You can tell me I'm wrong until you're blue in the face but its not going to change my opinion based on what I have seen and the fact that any school with athletic aspirations has left the conference over the last 20 years.

Regardless of your opinion, these schools are spending millions of dollars a year to run athletics departments, and several of them have invested many more millions in recent years to build and upgrade facilities. If they truly didn't care, they would not spend the money.

In the past 20 years, the Midwest Conference has lost one member (Carroll). The Pioneers rejoined the CCIW. The conference will lose SNC at the end of this academic year. I think if Carroll (one of SNC's closer Midwest Conference opponents) hadn't bolted, SNC might have stayed in the Midwest.
 
Regardless of your opinion, these schools are spending millions of dollars a year to run athletics departments, and several of them have invested many more millions in recent years to build and upgrade facilities. If they truly didn't care, they would not spend the money.

In the past 20 years, the Midwest Conference has lost one member (Carroll). The Pioneers rejoined the CCIW. The conference will lose SNC at the end of this academic year. I think if Carroll (one of SNC's closer Midwest Conference opponents) hadn't bolted, SNC might have stayed in the Midwest.
Coe and Cornell left in ‘98 and then Cornell came back. Should said 25 years.
 
D1 schools played not because it was safe, but because of the money involved. Period. Take the revenue out of the equation, and it is doubtful they would have played.

How many games were canceled, like 150 or close to? Plus several bowl games? The Rose Bowl was moved from Pasadena to Texas because Southern California was a freaking hot zone!

And you are saying that it went well?

Saban is pushing 70. Can you imagine if he and/or Ferentz had died after catching COVID during the season? Was it all worth it? Really?

At least the NFL players get paid and have their own union. D1 football being played was a total money move on the part of the NCAA.

https://www.si.com/college/2020/12/29/global-pandemic-exposed-ncaa-inc

Couldn’t disagree more. Don’t think it had anything to do about money.

I think it had to do with who has the power at the schools and common sense. The football coaches are the most powerful employee on campus for the power 5 schools.

Common sense said that playing football was just fine. And it played out that way.

You pair a highly respected football coach and common sense...you get a football season.
 
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I know a player at St. Norbert, he was telling me these D3 schools don’t have the trainers that the larger schools have...they have set groups that go from one sport to the other...if they are all playing at one time they will be spread too thin. So they are just calling it a wash and focusing on Fall.

With the tuition most players pay, you would think they could figure this out.
 
I know a player at St. Norbert, he was telling me these D3 schools don’t have the trainers that the larger schools have...they have set groups that go from one sport to the other...if they are all playing at one time they will be spread too thin. So they are just calling it a wash and focusing on Fall.

Don’t buy this. I coached in the MWC. Common that practices were held with out trainers present. If a trainer couldn’t cover a game they would hire a trainer from Athletico or some other outfit.

Not a reason to not play this spring.
 
The WIAC is not a typical D3 conference since they are state funded not playing football will have zero impact on the schools finances even if they have a drop off in football player enrollment, the same can not be said by everyone else in D3. Like I said before outside of Schools like SNC and Ripon most MWC really could careless about their athletic programs they are line item in the school budget and nothing more. You can tell me I'm wrong until you're blue in the face but its not going to change my opinion based on what I have seen and the fact that any school with athletic aspirations has left the conference over the last 20 years.

100% spot on post. Like I said in an earlier post, I coached in the MWC. Athletics is not as important as it is in other conferences.

From my experience, SNC is the one outlier. I would argue on including Ripon in the same sentence as SNC. Don’t think that’s true.

Couple examples on the MWC
*Lake Forest pays $24k to FT football coaches that are non-coordinators (how do you| North Central is 50-60k

*Monmouth has one FT basketball coach... it’s the HC | Majority of D3’s have 3

*Monmouth just recently added a 2nd FT trainer. They have 24 sports. Just simply astounding to me. | Most D3’s will have 5+

*Grinnell has forfeited football games every year do to lack of numbers. Just ridiculous. So many kids out there want to play college football.... go find some.

*Believe most, if not all programs don’t allow graduate assistants. Top D3 programs have 4.

*other than university of Chicago-every school in the conference is struggling w enrollment and I imagine keeping the doors open.
 
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Don’t buy this. I coached in the MWC. Common that practices were held with out trainers present. If a trainer couldn’t cover a game they would hire a trainer from Athletico or some other outfit.

Not a reason to not play this spring.
Just saying what I was told by a player in the program. Stuck me as odd as well but he had no reason to BS me as I have no stake in the game.
 
Just saying what I was told by a player in the program. Stuck me as odd as well but he had no reason to BS me as I have no stake in the game.

I understand and thanks for sharing. I just believe the player is mis-informed.

D3 teams not playing do to low spring numbers bc kids aren’t in school for the spring semester makes sense and sounds like a logical answer. I can wrap my brain around that.
 
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100% spot on post. Like I said in an earlier post, I coached in the MWC. Athletics is not as important as it is in other conferences.

From my experience, SNC is the one outlier. I would argue on including Ripon in the same sentence as SNC. Don’t think that’s true.

Couple examples on the MWC
*Lake Forest pays $24k to FT football coaches that are non-coordinators (how do you| North Central is 50-60k

*Monmouth has one FT basketball coach... it’s the HC | Majority of D3’s have 3

*Monmouth just recently added a 2nd FT trainer. They have 24 sports. Just simply astounding to me. | Most D3’s will have 5+

*Grinnell has forfeited football games every year do to lack of numbers. Just ridiculous. So many kids out there want to play college football.... go find some.

*Believe most, if not all programs don’t allow graduate assistants. Top D3 programs have 4.

*other than university of Chicago-every school in the conference is struggling w enrollment and I imagine keeping the doors open.


I can buy that athletics in the MWC are not as important as they are in other conferences.

What I can't buy is the implication that every MWC school is struggling with enrollment BECAUSE of athletics. Nor do I buy that every MWC school is struggling with enrollment, period. Athletics in the MWC have not compared well to some D3 conferences for decades. Do you think that perhaps, just perhaps, there are other factors at play regarding shrinking enrollment at some MWC schools? Look at small schools outside the MWC conference that have closed recently. Did poor athletics cause MacMurray to close? St. Joe's? Robert Morris? Holy Family?

What is your source that every school in the conference is struggling with enrollment? The following is a graph of Lawrence University enrollment over the past 20 years. It goes through 2019, when they enrolled 1442 students, but Lawrence is currently reporting 1,472 on their website. Looks pretty steady, wouldn't you agree?

nmdzwncxqs.png


Illinois College reported their highest enrollment ever in 2019 at 1,048 students. Their website is currently reporting 1,000 students. Again, hardly a struggle. Ripon reported 756 students in 2017. Right now, they are reporting 807. Doesn't look like these schools are struggling with enrollment to me.

To be fair, I have read that Beloit, Knox, and Monmouth have experienced declines. But, you said EVERY MWC school with the exception of Chicago.

What I can't buy is that the schools don't care about athletics as another poster has been repeatedly stating. If that is true, then how do you explain Lake Forest College spending like $25 million over the past decade to upgrade their sports facilities? How do you explain them adding lacrosse as a varsity sport? How do you explain SNC spending millions on their gym and adding a pool and and a varsity swimming and men's volleyball program? Other MWC schools have also made investments in their facilities recently.
 
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I didn't say they don't care about athletics....they just don't care about them the way other D3 conference's do.

Ripon is reporting 787 student (46%) men. That is a low number. And a dangerously low number. Just think that if a bunch of football players took the spring off bc there is no football to save a year (just like north central) how much that would effect their revenue. If 50 kids took the spring off....that would be ~8% of their enrollment.

Good/bad athletics does effect enrollment. The better the programs the more attention the school gets which raises enrollment numbers.
 
I didn't say they don't care about athletics....they just don't care about them the way other D3 conference's do.

Ripon is reporting 787 student (46%) men. That is a low number. And a dangerously low number. Just think that if a bunch of football players took the spring off bc there is no football to save a year (just like north central) how much that would effect their revenue. If 50 kids took the spring off....that would be ~8% of their enrollment.

Good/bad athletics does effect enrollment. The better the programs the more attention the school gets which raises enrollment numbers.

I didn't say you said they don't care about athletics. I said another poster said that. As for other conferences, I agree that the MWC is several steps below D3 conferences like the MIAC, the CCIW, or the OAC. But, there are other D3 conferences that are weaker than the MWC. It's not like they are at the bottom of the pack.
https://gmtm.com/articles/best-division-iii-football-conferences-2020

As for Ripon, they have never had much more than 1000 kids. And, 787 is 4% larger than the 756 they reported in 2016. https://datausa.io/profile/university/ripon-college

Athletics can influence enrollment, but successful athletics do not necessarily increase enrollment. For example, successful athletics can help a school maintain enrollment at a desired level. Perhaps SNC doesn't want to be any larger than they are right now. A strong athletics program is one of many tools colleges use to keep their enrollment where they want it to be. Weaker athletics can influence enrollment but they don't necessarily decrease enrollment. Lawrence has been a low-to-middle tier MWC school from an athletics standpoint for many years, yet their enrollment has been extremely steady as I referenced in a previous post.
 
We can agree to disagree. I think we are saying the same thing.

Better athletes brings more attention to your school. You may be at capacity with enrollment but its all about supply and demand. If there are more apps, you can charge a higher tuition and make the entrance requirements higher.
 
Couldn’t disagree more. Don’t think it had anything to do about money.

I think it had to do with who has the power at the schools and common sense. The football coaches are the most powerful employee on campus for the power 5 schools.

Common sense said that playing football was just fine. And it played out that way.

You pair a highly respected football coach and common sense...you get a football season.
You don't think D1 moving forward with a season had anything to do with money?
 
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Couldn’t disagree more. Don’t think it had anything to do about money.

I think it had to do with who has the power at the schools and common sense. The football coaches are the most powerful employee on campus for the power 5 schools.

Common sense said that playing football was just fine. And it played out that way.

You pair a highly respected football coach and common sense...you get a football season.

It has everything to do with money. Read this article: https://www.espn.com/college-sports...l-financial-wreckage-due-coronavirus-pandemic

Last April, Cincinnati dropped men's soccer citing money concerns during the pandemic. As of 2019, men's soccer there operated at a deficit of $726,498. Most soccer programs operate at deficits. Last August, Cincinnati gave their head football coach an annual raise of $1.1 million. BTW, Cincinnati reported an athletics operating surplus of $7.7 million last year despite COVID.

It's always about money.
 
I think different parts of the country view playing football differently. I don’t think money was the deciding factor but rather the conferences just having the balls to make the right decision to play. “We’re in the south and we play football. It’s that simple type of mindset.”

SEC/ACC/BIG 12 are in predominantly conservative regions and played. Same w the HS’s in those regions.

Big10/PAC 10 are predominantly liberal states and only played bc they looked weak if they didn’t.

Does not playing the season really drastically effect any power 5 school? Yes, budgets will need to be addressed but if Dabo takes a 1m salary cut, does it really matter? If the whole staffs take cuts...does it really matter?

That’s my thoughts.
 
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Side note, is the new administration approves free public universities....any chance D3 football survives?
 
It was estimated that on average a Power 5 school would lose $78 million in revenue without a football season and $4.1 Billion overall.
 
Side note, is the new administration approves free public universities....any chance D3 football survives?

Not going to happen anytime soon...even if the "new administration" had that power, which they do not.

If free public universities do happen at some point, I think D3 football would be among the least of the worries facing private higher education. My guess/hope is that Congress wouldn't approve a bill that would put most small liberal arts colleges out of business. I suspect it might look more like a G.I. Bill for everyone.
 
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It was estimated that on average a Power 5 school would lose $78 million in revenue without a football season and $4.1 Billion overall.

Not denying any of that. Just don’t think it was the ultimate decisioning factor.
 
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