D3 football

[wm4]

The also rans in the WIAC probably beat the top of the MWC. This whole debate got going when I was so bold as to declare that there were no real quality d3 teams in Illinois beyond Wheaton and NCC.... then all the defenders started talking about how good these bad (overall) conferences are...

A grand total of 1 poster offered up that the "MWC was Ok".

The rest of the debate has generally been about discussions within top D3 conferences such as CCIW, WIAC and MIAC. Are they good from top to bottom? No. But my any measure, they are recognized as some of the top conferences in D3. That's just the nature of the D3 landscape.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

A grand total of 1 poster offered up that the "MWC was Ok".

The rest of the debate has generally been about discussions within top D3 conferences such as CCIW, WIAC and MIAC. Are they good from top to bottom? No. But my any measure, they are recognized as some of the top conferences in D3. That's just the nature of the D3 landscape.

No, earlier there were defenders of the cciw as a great conference. And how good it was top to bottom, etc

 

[ramblinman]

The also rans in the WIAC probably beat the top of the MWC. This whole debate got going when I was so bold as to declare that there were no real quality d3 teams in Illinois beyond Wheaton and NCC.... then all the defenders started talking about how good these bad (overall) conferences are...

Completely agree with your bold declaration. Again, quality is relative. Sure, Aurora is 9-1, but if they get within 30 points of the Johnnies this weekend in round 1, it will be a huge surprise.

 

[Swansa01]

Playing D3 ball is a great experience. Sadly it doesn't exist in the Colorado/Wyoming/Montana trail i've been doing since college.

 

[ClownBaby]

Playing D3 ball is a great experience. Sadly it doesn't exist in the Colorado/Wyoming/Montana trail i've been doing since college.

That is D2 country there, the growth of D3 football especially in the South has been interesting over the last 10 years since more small colleges are seeing football as viable option to increase male enrollment.

 

[ramblinman]

That is D2 country there, the growth of D3 football especially in the South has been interesting over the last 10 years since more small colleges are seeing football as viable option to increase male enrollment.

No D2 programs whatsoever in Wyoming or Montana.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

No D2 programs whatsoever in Wyoming or Montana.

Colorado d2, Montana is NAIA country... Wyoming is D1 country 1 out of 1 = 100%, lol

 

[au6890]

Playing D3 ball is a great experience. Sadly it doesn't exist in the Colorado/Wyoming/Montana trail i've been doing since college.

Colorado College used to have a DIII team with an awesome half bowl stadium facing Pikes Peak.

 

[BornNRazed]

North Central shouldnt even be in the playoffs. John Carroll got screwed.

 

[USD24]

North Central shouldnt even be in the playoffs. John Carroll got screwed.

Agree. What really killed JCU is when Oshkosh beat Whitewater to win their conference.

I was a Blue Streak for a year before heading out west to USD

 

[ramblinman]

Agree. What really killed JCU is when Oshkosh beat Whitewater to win their conference.

Whitewater has not been as dominant as usual this year. Still think they will beat the snot out of Monmouth though.

 

[missingwalter]

Whitewater has not been as dominant as usual this year. Still think they will beat the snot out of Monmouth though.

Grew up with Monmouth's HC, almost felt bad wishing him luck.

 

[eagles2k3]

Great discussion. On a very positive note it's great to see that there are this many other D3 fans out there besides me. I always thought there were very few people that cared about the Randolph Macon's, Linfield's, Johnnies, Tommies, etc...Love D3 football.

 

[ramblinman]

Grew up with Monmouth's HC, almost felt bad wishing him luck.

If ever there were a year for Monmouth to make it anything other than a blowout, this might be the one.

 

[colin2229]

I believe Illinois has the most D3 representatives this year (Wheaton, NCC, Aurora, Monmouth). Pretty cool

MWC is arguably the worst conference in the country. Monmouth has had some good teams over the past few years but these team is going to get drilled.

I'm most curious to see how Aurora does vs St. Johns. Thinking they may score some points and make it a 42-28 type of game. This would be a great showing by them.

Wheaton has a legit shot at the big trophy this year. They are loaded!

 

[forlouann]

Yes, NCC was very fortunate to make the playoffs this year. Ranked #5 in the year end D3 poll and the last team invited . Not like the IHSA where 4-5 could get you in

 

[USD24]

Yes, NCC was very fortunate to make the playoffs this year. Ranked #5 in the year end D3 poll and the last team invited . Not like the IHSA where 4-5 could get you in

Agree. John Carroll finished the year ranked #7 and was left out of playoffs all together.

 

[ramblinman]

MWC is arguably the worst conference in the country. Monmouth has had some good teams over the past few years but these team is going to get drilled.

I agree the MWC is a below average conference, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are the worst. Last year, St. Norbert beat previously undefeated Trine University of the MIAA in round one of the playoffs by a score of 31-7.

 

[wm4]

Bit of a wild year, in that some legit good teams got shafted and didn't make the playoffs (John Carroll and Susquehanna). Susquehanna's lone loss was in OT to the eventual conference champ and #4 ranked team in the country. By all accounts it was down to NCC and Susquehanna for the final spot, and the general understanding is that the committee viewed NCC as having the better loss (to #3 Wheaton).

27 of the 32 playoff spots are determined by auto bids via conference championships. That leaves only 5 at large spots, across the entire nation. And yes, one of the conference champs went 5-5 this year, and 3-2 in conference. That conference is ranked at the bottom of the 27 conferences that sponsor D3 football. Another reminder that there is a vast difference in teams and conferences in the sport.

 

[USD24]

Bit of a wild year, in that some legit good teams got shafted and didn't make the playoffs (John Carroll and Susquehanna). Susquehanna's lone loss was in OT to the eventual conference champ and #4 ranked team in the country. By all accounts it was down to NCC and Susquehanna for the final spot, and the general understanding is that the committee viewed NCC as having the better loss (to #3 Wheaton).

27 of the 32 playoff spots are determined by auto bids via conference championships. That leaves only 5 at large spots, across the entire nation. And yes, one of the conference champs went 5-5 this year, and 3-2 in conference. That conference is ranked at the bottom of the 27 conferences that sponsor D3 football. Another reminder that there is a vast difference in teams and conferences in the sport.

IMHO, that is a terrible way to put the playoffs together. If you are going to give out 27 automatic births, then you have to expand the field. Too many deserving teams passed over so that some really bad conference champions get in. In this year's field, there are 13 teams in the tourney that finished the season not ranked.

John Carroll's only loss this season came to #2 Mt Union.

 

[wm4]

(I completely agree, btw).

The D3 model is "all about access", they say. It's super easy, "win your conference, and you're in", they say, and "everybody knows the rules".

I get all that, but there have to be some sensible adjustments. Conferences should have a minimum number of teams (say 8) in order to get that AQ bid, in my view. John Carroll and Susquehanna should be on buses today, traveling to games tomorrow.

 

[ClownBaby]

(I completely agree, btw).

The D3 model is "all about access", they say. It's super easy, "win your conference, and you're in", they say, and "everybody knows the rules".

I get all that, but there have to be some sensible adjustments. Conferences should have a minimum number of teams (say 8) in order to get that AQ bid, in my view. John Carroll and Susquehanna should be on buses today, traveling to games tomorrow.

The problem is Pool C (at large bids) have shrunk from when they originally went to 32 teams, having a teams from conferences with out 8 teams go into Pool B (independents and non auto league champs) would make sense and free up a few bids to get back up to 8 from 5.

2005 21 AQs, 4 B, 8 C
2006 22 AQs, 4 B, 7 C
2007 22 AQs, 3 B, 7 C
2008 23 AQs, 3 B, 6 C
2009 24 AQs, 3 B, 5 C
2010 23 AQs, 3 B, 6 C
2011 25 AQs, 1 B, 6 C
2012 24 AQs, 1 B, 7 C
2013 24 AQs, 3 B, 5 C
2014 24 AQs, 2 B, 6 C
2015 25 AQs, 1 B, 6 C
2016 25 AQs, 1 B, 6 C
2017 25 AQs, 2 B, 5 C
2018 26 AQs, 1 B, 5 C
2019 27 AQs, 0 B, 5 C

 

[Magnum Opus]

Grew up with Monmouth's HC, almost felt bad wishing him luck.

Well said...great guy

 

[Magnum Opus]

Go with a 9 game season and expand it to 64 teams

 

[WWS2015]

St Thomas up in Minneapolis, looking to leave D3 and classify straight to D1. That'll be interesting to watch as no school has ever done that before. Summit Conference has already extended St Thomas an invite for all sports but football. St Thomas has been in the Stagg Bowl a couple times over the last 8 years, both losses to Mount Union.

The top 15-30 teams in D3 play really good football and these kids are outstanding players. Mount is in a league of their own. Their speed and size, in person, is a notch up than the rest of D3.

Congrats to your son and their win last weekend!

St. Thomas wasn't really looking to leave, they were basically kicked out of their conference as the other member schools were going to vote to disband the conference if St. Thomas remained a member. I was really surprised that happened. Doesn't say much about the other schools in the MIAC.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

St. Thomas wasn't really looking to leave, they were basically kicked out of their conference as the other member schools were going to vote to disband the conference if St. Thomas remained a member. I was really surprised that happened. Doesn't say much about the other schools in the MIAC.

St. John’s and bethel voted to keep them. And the year before st Thomas finished 3rd behind those two in football. St Thomas is not more dominant in the conference in football than St. John’s. The other sports were the real issue... plus the st Olaf people were butt hurt that st Thomas ran the score up on them the year before.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Go with a 9 game season and expand it to 64 teams

Limiting the expense of traveling is a big deal in d3 football to the ncaa since they subsidize the travel of the teams... if they have to fly ncaa pays for it. That’s why bracket isn’t truly seeded the early round games are determined to keep all games in driving distance. The more playoff games played the more money the ncaa has to subsidize for travel and they aren’t going to do that. Especially with the lack of parody in d3, there is no competitive justification to add more teams to the bracket. The team that’s going to win the championship is in the bracket. John Carroll May feel snubbed and may beat 75 percent of the teams in the bracket but they aren’t going to beat the team that’s going to win the title so the ncaa doesn’t see that as an issue. They would tell you they are in the business of finding the champion not necessarily the best 32. As long as the best is among the 32 (which they always are) they are cool with that.

 

[mc140]

IMHO, that is a terrible way to put the playoffs together. If you are going to give out 27 automatic births, then you have to expand the field. Too many deserving teams passed over so that some really bad conference champions get in. In this year's field, there are 13 teams in the tourney that finished the season not ranked.

John Carroll's only loss this season came to #2 Mt Union.

NAIA model is a way to treat weaker conferences. Conference champs get in, but they have to be ranked in the top 20 in final poll. Sixteen teams make it.

 

[WWS2015]

No, the CCIW teams outside of these 2 are not good, sorry. I follow D3 football closer than most.

Look at these records the entire bottom half of the league is a losing record. The middle grouping isn’t anything to write home about either unless you want to talk about Augustana in the 1980’s.

Wheaton # 9-0 10-0
North Central 8-1 9-1

WashU 6-3 7-3
Illinois Wesleyan 6-3 6-4
Augustana 5-4 6-4

Millikin 4-5 5-5
Carthage 4-5 4-6
Carroll 1-8 2-8
Elmhurst 1-8 1-9
North Park 1-8 1-9

Incredibly uninformed post. Since the 2009 season, the CCIW has had 4 different teams qualify for the playoffs. In 8 of those seasons, the CCIW has qualified two teams for the playoffs. Since there are only 5-7 at large (Pool C) spots available each year, I would say that the CCIW is pretty well respected as a quality conference based on those Pool C selections. Yes, Wheaton and NCC have clearly been at the top of the CCIW for most of this time, but IWU has also qualified 4 times during this period and the addition of Wash U a couple of seasons ago has really added to the depth of this conference. This year, the CCIW had 4 teams ranked in the top 25 of D3 early in the season. When 9 of your 10 games are played in conference, it's certainly not unusual that the bottom half of the league will have losing records. If you want some more facts about the quality of the CCIW, Millikin, the 6th place finisher in the conference gave Hope, the MIAA conference champ and playoff qualifier its only loss of the season. Carthage, the 7th place finisher in the CCIW, lost by 1 point to the WIAC champ, Wisconsin Oshkosh, at Oshkosh earlier in the season. Yes, there are some really weak teams at the bottom of the conference, but show me a conference where that's not the case. The bottom half of the OAC (Mt Union's conf.) finished 5-5, 3-7, 3-7, 2-8 and 0-10. Bottom half of the WIAC finished 4-6, 3-7, 3-7 and 2-8. In the case of the CCIW, I think they stack up pretty well when the top 6 teams finish with a .500 record or better.

I played at Augustana during our championship run during the 80's and have followed the CCIW and D3 since then, so I think I have as good of knowledge about D3 and the CCIW as most. Your claim just has no basis in reality.

 

[mc140]

I'm surprised North Park hasn't left the CCIW.

 

[WWS2015]

North Central shouldnt even be in the playoffs. John Carroll got screwed.

NCC was, most likely the last team selected for the playoffs and they were ranked #5 in the country in the final regular season poll. NCC would beat John Carroll by 20. Even most OAC posters on the D3football site feel bad the JCU wasn't selected, but also agree that they shouldn't have been based on the criteria used by the selection committee.

 

[WWS2015]

I'm surprised North Park hasn't left the CCIW.

A lot of people say that, but I don't think it is something that will ever happen. Yes they have struggled to compete in football and probably always will. But they are able to compete in other Men's sports, winning CCIW championships in Baseball in 2011 and 2012, Basketball in 2017 and Soccer in 2017, 2018 and 2019. Despite the struggles in football, I think the school sees value in being a part of the CCIW and I don't see that changing.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Incredibly uninformed post. Since the 2009 season, the CCIW has had 4 different teams qualify for the playoffs. In 8 of those seasons, the CCIW has qualified two teams for the playoffs. Since there are only 5-7 at large (Pool C) spots available each year, I would say that the CCIW is pretty well respected as a quality conference based on those at selections. Yes, Wheaton and NCC have clearly been at the top of the CCIW for most of this time, but IWU has also qualified 4 times during this period and the addition of Wash U a couple of seasons ago has really added to the depth of this conference. This year, the CCIW had 4 teams ranked in the top 25 of D3 early in the season. When 9 of your 10 games are played in conference, it's certainly not unusual that the bottom half of the league will have losing records. If you want some more facts about the quality of the CCIW, Millikin, the 6th place finisher in the conference gave Hope, the MIAA conference champ and playoff qualifier its only loss of the season. Carthage, the 7th place finisher in the CCIW, lost by 1 point to the WIAC champ, Wisconsin Oshkosh, at Oshkosh earlier in the season. Yes, there are some really weak teams at the bottom of the conference, but show me a conference where that's not the case. The bottom half of the OAC (Mt Union's conf.) finished 5-5, 3-7, 3-7, 2-8 and 0-10. Bottom half of the WIAC finished 4-6, 3-7, 3-7 and 2-8. In the case of the CCIW, I think they stack up pretty good when the top 6 teams finish with a .500 record or better.

I played at Augustana during our championship run during the 80's and have followed the CCIW and D3 since then, so I think I have as good of knowledge about D3 and the CCIW as most. Your claim just has no basis in reality.

Giving hope from the MIAA a loss doesn’t excite me. My money is on Wartburg to win tomorrow. I’m not going to get into another unending debate about d3 conferences here... if you read all the posts in the thread you will see plenty of that back and forth and I’m certain neither will ever get the other to agree on it so I’ll let it be.

 

[WWS2015]

IMHO, that is a terrible way to put the playoffs together. If you are going to give out 27 automatic births, then you have to expand the field. Too many deserving teams passed over so that some really bad conference champions get in. In this year's field, there are 13 teams in the tourney that finished the season not ranked.

John Carroll's only loss this season came to #2 Mt Union.

I completely agree that teams like Susquehanna and JCU are much better than a lot of the teams that qualified and are more than deserving of being in the playoffs, but that is not the model that the NCAA has built for its championships. You can make this argument against any of the tournaments that the NCAA operates, including March Madness. Does anyone think that the teams selected to the tournament are the 68 best teams in the country? I certainly don't think so. The model is about access to the member schools, which will never be perfect. That being said, I don't think it diminishes what the ultimate champion has to do to win. I would be shocked if they expanded the field from the current 32. As it is, the championship game is the 15 game of the season for two teams and I would be surprised if they looked to add another game to that total. Yes, you could reduce the number of regular season games to 9 and double the field to 64 teams, but is that really fair to the players on the other ~186 teams in D3 that won't make the playoffs and get to play one less game.

 

[WWS2015]

Giving hope from the MIAA a loss doesn’t excite me. My money is on Wartburg to win tomorrow. I’m not going to get into another unending debate about d3 conferences here... if you read all the posts in the thread you will see plenty of that back and forth and I’m certain neither will ever get the other to agree on it so I’ll let it be.

No problem and I would agree with you that Wartburg will beat Hope tomorrow. My point was simply that, IMO, if you could move some of the mid tier teams from the CCIW to other conferences, they would be more than able to compete with the top level teams in those conferences, because the CCIW is one of the better football conferences in the country. I get it that you don't agree, just putting out some rationale behind my thinking.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

No problem and I would agree with you that Wartburg will beat Hope tomorrow. My point was simply that, IMO, if you could move some of the mid tier teams from the CCIW to other conferences, they would be more than able to compete with the top level teams in those conferences, because the CCIW is one of the better football conferences in the country. I get it that you don't agree, just putting out some rationale behind my thinking.

No doubt some mid tiers could challenge in some of the worst conferences in d3. My overarching point in previous exchanges is that there is an overall lack of depth of quality in d3 in general.... the top 20-25 teams are far superior to the rest and even with the top 20 the top 8 or so are far superior to the other 12. And that in most all of the conferences there is a lack of depth where after the top 2 maybe 3 teams the rest fall of a cliff. Wheaton and Ncc are examples of that in the cciw.... St. John’s, st Thomas and bethel are examples of that in the miac. And it doesn’t seem quality of conference drives the quality of the top teams. An elite team or 2 at the top can stay elite while in a conference of weak teams.. there isn’t a great correlation. I had said earlier that due to this disconnect you are better off talking about d3 teams as individual teams on their own merits and not really even worry about comparing conferences. The ranking of conferences doesn’t really do anything except rank the top couple teams. If Wheaton and NCC moved to the worst conference in all of d3 that would be enough to single handedly make that conference a top 5-8 conference. If St. John’s and st Thomas and bethel told the other losers in the MIAC to go fly a kite for removing st Thomas and the 3 joined a conference like the American rivers conference (formerly the iiac - Iowa conference) that would probably surge to a top 2 conference if not the top and actually have depth but why would anyone want that because you would have too many deserving teams cut out of the playoffs. In the current model you are rewarded for spreading the best teams across as many conferences as possible to take as many auto qualifier spots as possible and not let average teams in bad conferences steal those spots while a really good 3rd place team is left out.

 

[Swansa01]

Colorado College used to have a DIII team with an awesome half bowl stadium facing Pikes Peak.

That they did. I got to coach track there for 2 season and being in that stadium was kind of sad seeing the back drop it had and that all it hosts is Lacrosse and soccer now.

 

[WWS2015]

No doubt some mid tiers could challenge in some of the worst conferences in d3. My overarching point in previous exchanges is that there is an overall lack of depth of quality in d3 in general.... the top 20-25 teams are far superior to the rest and even with the top 20 the top 8 or so are far superior to the other 12. And that in most all of the conferences there is a lack of depth where after the top 2 maybe 3 teams the rest fall of a cliff. Wheaton and Ncc are examples of that in the cciw.... St. John’s, st Thomas and bethel are examples of that in the miac. And it doesn’t seem quality of conference drives the quality of the top teams. An elite team or 2 at the top can stay elite while in a conference of weak teams.. there isn’t a great correlation. I had said earlier that due to this disconnect you are better off talking about d3 teams as individual teams on their own merits and not really even worry about comparing conferences. The ranking of conferences doesn’t really do anything except rank the top couple teams. If Wheaton and NCC moved to the worst conference in all of d3 that would be enough to single handedly make that conference a top 5-8 conference. If St. John’s and st Thomas and bethel told the other losers in the MIAC to go fly a kite for removing st Thomas and the 3 joined a conference like the American rivers conference (formerly the iiac - Iowa conference) that would probably surge to a top 2 conference if not the top and actually have depth but why would anyone want that because you would have too many deserving teams cut out of the playoffs. In the current model you are rewarded for spreading the best teams across as many conferences as possible to take as many auto qualifier spots as possible and not let average teams in bad conferences steal those spots while a really good 3rd place team is left out.

I don't disagree with the points you are making here. The points you are making can be said of virtually every D3 conference in the country. But that is a completely different argument than where this originally started. You made the following claim:

Hate to burst bubbles around here but the quality of the D3 conferences that are played in by Illinois teams are bad. North Central and Wheaton are the only decent teams in Illinois or any of the conferences played in by Illinois teams

This is the statement you made that I think is uninformed and has no basis in reality of D3 football.

Since 1999 when the playoffs were expanded to 28 teams (expanded again to 32 in 2005), every team that makes up the current football schools in the CCIW with the exception of North Park and Carroll have qualified for the NCAA playoffs at least once. IWU has qualified for the playoffs 4 times since 2009, most recently in 2017, but was the co-champ of the CCIW in 2018 with NCC. Although they were't yet in the CCIW, Wash U. has qualified for the playoffs twice in this same time frame. As I mentioned previously, the CCIW has qualified two teams for the playoffs 8 times since 2009 (and I'm not including Wash U in that stat since they weren't a part of the CCIW when they qualified). I think you would be hard pressed to name a D3 conference that has a similar type of record. Compare that to the WIAC, ranked by most as the top D3 football conference (which I agree with BTW). Since 2009, the WIAC has qualified multiple teams for the playoffs only 4 times, half of what the CCIW has done. They have had 3 different teams qualify for the playoffs, one less than the CCIW. So if you are making a point that all D3 football conferences are top heavy, I would certainly agree with that, but I also think you can make at case the CCIW is not as top heavy as some of the other best D3 conferences and has been more competitive, top to bottom, vs. most D3 football conferences over the past 20 years.

 

[eagles2k3]

Upset alert from the terrible Illinois D3 schools. Aurora beating St. Johns 28-21 at half.

 

[35Blackhawk42Spartan]

Upset alert from the terrible Illinois D3 schools.

Aurora beating St. Johns at end of 3Q, AU 40-SJU 35.....